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So sell compatible size higher density batteries. Actual disposable batteries (remember those?) have improved dramatically over the decades but you can still p

So sell compatible size higher density batteries. Actual disposable batteries (remember those?) have improved dramatically over the decades but you can still put a brand new AA battery loaded with the latest 2022 tech into a remote control from the 50s and expect it to work.

SideQuark 4y ago
>Actual disposable batteries they have the same form factor, and they have not changed much over decades in capability and certainly not size. Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size. When phone batteries get higher density, then it's likely a readeoff between adding more other features and keeping the same battery size - and as other features change, so do battery needs. The rapid evolution of phone tech, in every aspect, makes it cheaper (and wiser) to re-eval each piece quickly, or you get beat in the market place. Maybe in decades this will settle down, like it took for the disposable batteries to standardize over decades...
- KronisLV 4y ago
  > Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size. It would be nice if that wasn't the case. I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the same battery type across multiple of their tools, so that they are interchangeable. I can imagine something like that happening industry-wide with a bit more lawmaking, like happened with USB types. Actually, it would be even better if we had a few common phone battery standards and every manufacturer had to use those (ideally with removable batteries). This might mean that phones would have to be built with the batteries in mind, not vice versa, which doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. Then again, personally I wouldn't even mind if there were like 10-20 common phone form factors in the first place.
  - radicalbyte 4y ago
    > I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the same battery type across multiple of their tools That's because electric power tools are sold as a platform: you choose a brand and buy in to their platform. For example I mainly use a driver + drill so bought in to Milwaukee. Ended up buying a lot of other kit from them too.
  - rlt 4y ago
    > with a bit more lawmaking No thanks. Things like this almost always have unintended consequences.
    - asddubs 4y ago
      you could say that about literally any law. should we just not have laws then, lest there be unintended consequences?
    - lm28469 4y ago
      Because the opposite doesn't have unintended consequences ? Do you know what we do with e waste ? ship them to Africa/China for """recycling"""
  - unwind 4y ago
    Have you seen AMPShare Alliance [1]? It's a common 18-volt battery tool platform with many partners. Mostly industrial/professional tools so far but I hope it will continue to grow. Yes, I have Bosch stuff. :) [1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ng/en/ https://www.ampshare.com/ng/en/
    - ProZsolt 4y ago
      There is also the Cordless Alliance System[1]. The problem they are all small players except Bosch. Once two of the big players (Bosch, Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc.) start sharing batteries hen it will make a difference. Bosch don't even share batteries between their blue and green lineup. [1]: https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/ https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/
      - rasz 4y ago
        haha, TTI doesnt even share batteries between its own brands, and you expect manufacturers to adopt same standard? :D https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
- dotancohen 4y ago
  > Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size. But the voltage remains the same: 3.7 discharged and 4.2 volts fully charged. I really don't care if the outer dimensions of the battery are sloppy by 5 mm or if the capacity is smaller (or larger) by a few hundred or even a thousand mAh - so long as I can replace the _absolutely dead_ battery already in the device. I'll pad out the rest with styrofoam or even just squeeze some tacky clay in there to prevent it from rattling.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  A silly question then: why there are no AA/AAA rechargeable batteries that are Li-Ion/Li-Poly/whatever chemistry is used in smartphone batteries? Seems like a no-brainer to me: use the apparently better, more advanced, more energy-dense chemistry, but in a standard AA/AAA format. Pack whatever control electronics you need for safety too. Not only my remote controls would have half a decade of battery life, an iPhone could be powered off 2 such AAs, instead of 8-10 regular ones like other commenters here calculated. Why isn't it done? Where's the catch?
  - Panzer04 4y ago
    You’d need a buck converter for discharging the battery, and they aren’t much better than NiMH batteries at it. So it’s cheaper to just buy Eneloops if you want AA/AAA batteries
    - mnw21cam 4y ago
      I have some such AAA batteries. Not for the extra capacity - I'm not convinced they actually have any better capacity than the NiMH I was using before, but because they hold 1.5V for the duration of their charge, and for some reason my headphone can't cope with less than 1.5V.
  - butterknife 4y ago
    The Li chemistry produces much higher voltages and so would require step down circuitry to function as a direct replacement for AA/AAA. If you are talking about form factor, then there are a lot of similar size or smaller cells available.
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      I'm talking about having rechargeable AA/AAAs with higher power density, possibly using the same chemistry as in phones, laptops, drones, etc., so the industry could cut down on the amount of variation in sizes and connector types (which could possibly make the batteries somewhat cheaper thanks to less variation in manufacturing - though I suppose the price driver is still the chemistry). What's the minimum voltage we could get without intervention? I'm not well-versed in batteries, but I do recall that a typical Li-Ion cell has 3.7V on output, which might be tricky to fit into one AA/AAA, but isn't that far from two AA/AAAs. While there's no standard way for devices to accept multiple AA/AAAs, to a first approximation, a Li-Ion cell reformatted into a shape of two AAs with ~1-2mm "space" between them, would fit all my remotes and a third of my children's toys - so I could see a "Li-Ion double AA" working as a product, provided it could shed that 0.7V somewhere. The biggest problem would be devices accepting odd number of batteries.
- lm28469 4y ago
  It's a choice we make, not a God given rule that we have to abid to or perish in fire
mongol 4y ago
Imagine a smartphone designed to use AAA batteries. That would be something. Would be cool to see.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > Would be cool to see. Probably not the word I’d have used. You’d need what, 6 high-capacity AAAs to get standard battery size/life? Maybe 8? Possibly 10 with recent phones?
  - Nition 4y ago
    An iPhone 14 Pro has a 3,200mAh battery. The Energiser rechargeable AAA I happen to have here is 800mAh. So exactly four standard rechargeable AAAs. Not bad really. Edit: As explained below, this is incorrect, as I didn't take voltage into account.
    - coder543 4y ago
      "mAh" is a useless measurement that should be banned from marketing to the public, period. It does not actually represent the energy stored in the batteries, and it can easily mislead people. I also get annoyed that no one uses Ah, when "thousands of thousandths" is a really annoying way to communicate. 3200mAh -> 3.2Ah. Why do no manufacturers understand this? And why don't manufacturers just use a proper unit that measures the energy stored in the battery? You must compare watt-hours (or use joules, if you like) for it to be meaningful. AAA voltage is 1.5V, lithium ion voltage is 3.7V or 4.2V or something, which means that each "mAh" is worth several times as much as one from a AAA battery. The iPhone 14 Pro battery is about 12Wh. A single AAA battery has about 1.9Wh, according to google. So, 6 AAA batteries, optimistically, excluding other factors that could raise the count. Using your number of 800mAh*1.5V=1.2Wh, which would mean 10 AAA batteries.
      - consp 4y ago
        The load characteristics also matter. Under certain load profiles those AAAs won't come even close to their rated capacity (no matter what misleading unit used). I also find the 1.9wh very optimistic, I guess you took the average AA capacity, in which case the battery would almost become bigger than the phone.

SideQuark 4y ago

>Actual disposable batteries they have the same form factor, and they have not changed much over decades in capability and certainly not size. Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size. When phone batteries get higher density, then it's likely a readeoff between adding more other features and keeping the same battery size - and as other features change, so do battery needs. The rapid evolution of phone tech, in every aspect, makes it cheaper (and wiser) to re-eval each piece quickly, or you get beat in the market place. Maybe in decades this will settle down, like it took for the disposable batteries to standardize over decades...

KronisLV 4y ago
> Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size. It would be nice if that wasn't the case. I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the same battery type across multiple of their tools, so that they are interchangeable. I can imagine something like that happening industry-wide with a bit more lawmaking, like happened with USB types. Actually, it would be even better if we had a few common phone battery standards and every manufacturer had to use those (ideally with removable batteries). This might mean that phones would have to be built with the batteries in mind, not vice versa, which doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. Then again, personally I wouldn't even mind if there were like 10-20 common phone form factors in the first place.
- radicalbyte 4y ago
  > I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the same battery type across multiple of their tools That's because electric power tools are sold as a platform: you choose a brand and buy in to their platform. For example I mainly use a driver + drill so bought in to Milwaukee. Ended up buying a lot of other kit from them too.
- rlt 4y ago
  > with a bit more lawmaking No thanks. Things like this almost always have unintended consequences.
  - asddubs 4y ago
    you could say that about literally any law. should we just not have laws then, lest there be unintended consequences?
  - lm28469 4y ago
    Because the opposite doesn't have unintended consequences ? Do you know what we do with e waste ? ship them to Africa/China for """recycling"""
- unwind 4y ago
  Have you seen AMPShare Alliance [1]? It's a common 18-volt battery tool platform with many partners. Mostly industrial/professional tools so far but I hope it will continue to grow. Yes, I have Bosch stuff. :) [1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ng/en/ https://www.ampshare.com/ng/en/
  - ProZsolt 4y ago
    There is also the Cordless Alliance System[1]. The problem they are all small players except Bosch. Once two of the big players (Bosch, Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc.) start sharing batteries hen it will make a difference. Bosch don't even share batteries between their blue and green lineup. [1]: https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/ https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/
    - rasz 4y ago
      haha, TTI doesnt even share batteries between its own brands, and you expect manufacturers to adopt same standard? :D https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
dotancohen 4y ago
> Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size. But the voltage remains the same: 3.7 discharged and 4.2 volts fully charged. I really don't care if the outer dimensions of the battery are sloppy by 5 mm or if the capacity is smaller (or larger) by a few hundred or even a thousand mAh - so long as I can replace the _absolutely dead_ battery already in the device. I'll pad out the rest with styrofoam or even just squeeze some tacky clay in there to prevent it from rattling.
TeMPOraL 4y ago
A silly question then: why there are no AA/AAA rechargeable batteries that are Li-Ion/Li-Poly/whatever chemistry is used in smartphone batteries? Seems like a no-brainer to me: use the apparently better, more advanced, more energy-dense chemistry, but in a standard AA/AAA format. Pack whatever control electronics you need for safety too. Not only my remote controls would have half a decade of battery life, an iPhone could be powered off 2 such AAs, instead of 8-10 regular ones like other commenters here calculated. Why isn't it done? Where's the catch?
- Panzer04 4y ago
  You’d need a buck converter for discharging the battery, and they aren’t much better than NiMH batteries at it. So it’s cheaper to just buy Eneloops if you want AA/AAA batteries
  - mnw21cam 4y ago
    I have some such AAA batteries. Not for the extra capacity - I'm not convinced they actually have any better capacity than the NiMH I was using before, but because they hold 1.5V for the duration of their charge, and for some reason my headphone can't cope with less than 1.5V.
- butterknife 4y ago
  The Li chemistry produces much higher voltages and so would require step down circuitry to function as a direct replacement for AA/AAA. If you are talking about form factor, then there are a lot of similar size or smaller cells available.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    I'm talking about having rechargeable AA/AAAs with higher power density, possibly using the same chemistry as in phones, laptops, drones, etc., so the industry could cut down on the amount of variation in sizes and connector types (which could possibly make the batteries somewhat cheaper thanks to less variation in manufacturing - though I suppose the price driver is still the chemistry). What's the minimum voltage we could get without intervention? I'm not well-versed in batteries, but I do recall that a typical Li-Ion cell has 3.7V on output, which might be tricky to fit into one AA/AAA, but isn't that far from two AA/AAAs. While there's no standard way for devices to accept multiple AA/AAAs, to a first approximation, a Li-Ion cell reformatted into a shape of two AAs with ~1-2mm "space" between them, would fit all my remotes and a third of my children's toys - so I could see a "Li-Ion double AA" working as a product, provided it could shed that 0.7V somewhere. The biggest problem would be devices accepting odd number of batteries.
lm28469 4y ago
It's a choice we make, not a God given rule that we have to abid to or perish in fire

mongol 4y ago

Imagine a smartphone designed to use AAA batteries. That would be something. Would be cool to see.

masklinn 4y ago
> Would be cool to see. Probably not the word I’d have used. You’d need what, 6 high-capacity AAAs to get standard battery size/life? Maybe 8? Possibly 10 with recent phones?
- Nition 4y ago
  An iPhone 14 Pro has a 3,200mAh battery. The Energiser rechargeable AAA I happen to have here is 800mAh. So exactly four standard rechargeable AAAs. Not bad really. Edit: As explained below, this is incorrect, as I didn't take voltage into account.
  - coder543 4y ago
    "mAh" is a useless measurement that should be banned from marketing to the public, period. It does not actually represent the energy stored in the batteries, and it can easily mislead people. I also get annoyed that no one uses Ah, when "thousands of thousandths" is a really annoying way to communicate. 3200mAh -> 3.2Ah. Why do no manufacturers understand this? And why don't manufacturers just use a proper unit that measures the energy stored in the battery? You must compare watt-hours (or use joules, if you like) for it to be meaningful. AAA voltage is 1.5V, lithium ion voltage is 3.7V or 4.2V or something, which means that each "mAh" is worth several times as much as one from a AAA battery. The iPhone 14 Pro battery is about 12Wh. A single AAA battery has about 1.9Wh, according to google. So, 6 AAA batteries, optimistically, excluding other factors that could raise the count. Using your number of 800mAh*1.5V=1.2Wh, which would mean 10 AAA batteries.
    - consp 4y ago
      The load characteristics also matter. Under certain load profiles those AAAs won't come even close to their rated capacity (no matter what misleading unit used). I also find the 1.9wh very optimistic, I guess you took the average AA capacity, in which case the battery would almost become bigger than the phone.