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> the decentralization key is computing power Ethereum no longer uses proof of work (computing power). Also, neither BTC nor ETH have a governance token.

latchkey 4y ago
Correct, for block generation. The hard reality though is that ASICs are coming back to ETH (Vitalik has hinted at it in his own posts [0]) and at the end of the day, ETH needs compute. [0] https://vitalik.ca/general/2022/08/04/zkevm.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2022/08/04/zkevm.html
- shakow 4y ago
  That's hard to say; the zkEVM landscape is currently moving very fast with already three main contenders in the ring, and performances are being gained there and there. Maybe in the end ASICs will be required, maybe they will be used as an intermediary solution, but there is no inescapable requirement on the long term for them yet. By this, I mean that the current use of compute power is not seen as a feature, but as a regrettable side-effect of current algorithms, that is being worked on to reduce as much as can be.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    It isn't about if they are needed, or not. If there are financial incentives and efficiencies to be gained, they will be created.
    - shakow 4y ago
      But these financial incentives depend on whether algorithmic improvements will be enough to make do without them.
      - latchkey 4y ago
        Yes, it is an interesting feedback loop and I'll tell you... there are a lot more than 3 main contenders in the ring. Looking over the spreadsheet tracking all of this, it is closer to 20. You probably just haven't heard of them, yet.
        shakow 4y ago
        Yeah, my point is that compute power is seen as a technical obstacle in zkEVMs, whereas it is a feature in PoS. > there are a lot more than 3 main contenders in the ring There are. However, if you focus on clost to fully Ethereum-compatible L2 rollups, there are very few of them.
throwaway4837 4y ago
You missed the point -- proof of stake is more likely to become centralized than proof of work since now you don't have to buy computers to own the network, you simply buy the coin. It's much easier to acquire a million ETH than it is to acquire and manage the equivalent value in computers. Even accounting for liquidity problems in acquiring ETH, the supply problems for hundreds of thousands of computers are probably worse. My point is even stronger with pseudo-centralized consensus like proof of stake.

latchkey 4y ago

Correct, for block generation. The hard reality though is that ASICs are coming back to ETH (Vitalik has hinted at it in his own posts [0]) and at the end of the day, ETH needs compute. [0] https://vitalik.ca/general/2022/08/04/zkevm.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2022/08/04/zkevm.html

shakow 4y ago
That's hard to say; the zkEVM landscape is currently moving very fast with already three main contenders in the ring, and performances are being gained there and there. Maybe in the end ASICs will be required, maybe they will be used as an intermediary solution, but there is no inescapable requirement on the long term for them yet. By this, I mean that the current use of compute power is not seen as a feature, but as a regrettable side-effect of current algorithms, that is being worked on to reduce as much as can be.
- latchkey 4y ago
  It isn't about if they are needed, or not. If there are financial incentives and efficiencies to be gained, they will be created.
  - shakow 4y ago
    But these financial incentives depend on whether algorithmic improvements will be enough to make do without them.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      Yes, it is an interesting feedback loop and I'll tell you... there are a lot more than 3 main contenders in the ring. Looking over the spreadsheet tracking all of this, it is closer to 20. You probably just haven't heard of them, yet.
      - shakow 4y ago
        Yeah, my point is that compute power is seen as a technical obstacle in zkEVMs, whereas it is a feature in PoS. > there are a lot more than 3 main contenders in the ring There are. However, if you focus on clost to fully Ethereum-compatible L2 rollups, there are very few of them.

throwaway4837 4y ago

You missed the point -- proof of stake is more likely to become centralized than proof of work since now you don't have to buy computers to own the network, you simply buy the coin. It's much easier to acquire a million ETH than it is to acquire and manage the equivalent value in computers. Even accounting for liquidity problems in acquiring ETH, the supply problems for hundreds of thousands of computers are probably worse. My point is even stronger with pseudo-centralized consensus like proof of stake.