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So Tesla is now going back and adding ‘HD Radar’ to the mix… after claiming it was a net negative and removing it barely a year earlier. No one saw that coming.

So Tesla is now going back and adding ‘HD Radar’ to the mix… after claiming it was a net negative and removing it barely a year earlier. No one saw that coming. <sarcasm> For a company that partially exists because of the economies of scale and energy density gains in better battery tech, it always shocked me that Elon thought LiDAR was too expensive. In the time that Tesla has spent failing to achieve anything beyond level 2 autonomy, almost everyone else is about to release commercial vehicles at level 3… and they use LiDAR.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
They’re going back because the supply chain has eased up and their internally developed hi res radar (“Phoenix”) is reaching production grade, so they no longer have to argue Vision is superior to keep shipping units post pandemic. My prediction was wrong though, see below. I assumed NHTSA would’ve forced a recall mandating a move back to radar. They didn’t, and Vision was good enough to receive the highest rating in Euro NCAP’s protocol. You don’t need radar for Autopilot (we have Teslas both with and without radar), but if they say it’ll help with FSD, that would be a reasonable thesis to put forth (without arguing the merits of FSD). > Overall, the Model Y received an Adult Occupant Protection rating of 97%, a Child Occupant Production rating of 89%, a Vulnerable Road User Protection rating of 82%, and a near-perfect Safety Assist rating of 98%. The Model Y’s 98% score in the Euro NCAP’s safety assist category is especially impressive as these are related to features that utilize the company’s radar-less Tesla Vision system. > In fact, Model Y’s Safety Assist rating is the highest score among the vehicles that have been tested by the Euro NCAP to date. The Model Y’s stellar Adult Occupant Protection rating is also the highest thus far under the agency’s 2020-2022 rating criteria. Overall, the results of the Model Y’s safety tests prove one thing: vehicles equipped with Tesla Vision are just as safe — if not safer — than other vehicles out on the roads today. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31687408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31687408 https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-ncap-score-new-protocol/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-... https://electrek.co/2020/10/22/tesla-4d-radar-twice-range-self-driving/ https://electrek.co/2020/10/22/tesla-4d-radar-twice-range-se...
- ra7 4y ago
  > They’re going back because the supply chain has eased up and their internally developed hi res radar (“Phoenix”) is reaching production grade, so they no longer have to argue Vision is superior to keep shipping units post pandemic. In other words, they lied that vision-only is superior to having a radar, put out a blog post on how Tesla Vision is going to solve FSD and then sold a few hundred thousand cars without radar for over a year.
  - 1letterunixname 4y ago
    Tying one hand behind their back in a fight proves only someone's ego is willing to take unnecessary risks than use every opportunity available. Elon is that type of a--hole who would gamble lives to be "right".
    - leobg 4y ago
      “Another person’s vanity only bothers us if it goes against our own.” —Nietzsche
      - 1letterunixname 4y ago
        Unfortunately, your trolling attempt is irrelevant to the facts such as being unable to see stationary objects in the road when traveling over 80 mph. Would you prefer a less safe and less capable vehicle to "prove" how "smart" you think you are while killing more passengers and bystanders? I suggest adding something of value in the future rather than try to look smart because you only appear to be a biased fool.
        leobg 4y ago
        You are calling people a--holes and biased fools. Doesn't look to me at all as if you're interested in a discussion of sensors. My impression is that you have an axe to grind. Hence that quote. It points to the observation that when people get defensive about another person's ego, it usually means they see themselves somehow in a competition with that other person. Jung would have called it projection. Girard would have called it mimetic rivalry. None of that is an excuse for your dismissive attitude and name-calling, which really don't belong on HN.
Delemono 4y ago
Their ai model is quite impressive. Humans are also able to drive with vision only. Same sentiment as Hotz from comma.ai has. I also think that radar will be a no brainer and make it better over all (night, fog) but I'm not sure if it has to be a must. Perhaps in 20years when you have overall very good car AI the non radar version is always behind but we are far away from this market saturation. Probably more than 20 car iterations and more.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  > Humans are also able to drive with vision only. Same sentiment as Hotz from comma.ai has. I’ve said this before and I’ll repeat it here. A CMOS sensor is nothing like the human eye both in terms of HW and the SW (ignoring the AI that interprets the signal - I’m talking just in terms of the sensor). Your eye is constantly subconsciously scanning an insanely wide FOV so that not only do you have an insanely high-res image at the center, you have a fairly high fidelity larger FOV that is quite wide. Additionally, the camera will automatically shift its focus insanely fast if there’s any motion in your periphery and start filling in the scene with extremely high fidelity data. It’s hard to really equate the two but some analyses I’ve found on Google estimate the human eye at having hundreds of megapixels worth of fidelity. The Tesla has ~8 1 megapixel cameras. As for the intelligence behind the camera in terms of command and control, the human brain is significantly better. At some point in the future, sure. A pure vision system could be equivalent (actually better) to a human driver. Today it’s probably better in some ways (doesn’t have the attention failure modes that the human brain can suffer) but fatally worse in others (distinguishing the white trailer on a semi right in front with a cloud or understanding there’s a dividor right in front of you). Obviously things are going to get better so I’d bet on a pure vision system in a decade or two will probably work. The problem is Musk’s false advertising and the lives it’s cost.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

They’re going back because the supply chain has eased up and their internally developed hi res radar (“Phoenix”) is reaching production grade, so they no longer have to argue Vision is superior to keep shipping units post pandemic. My prediction was wrong though, see below. I assumed NHTSA would’ve forced a recall mandating a move back to radar. They didn’t, and Vision was good enough to receive the highest rating in Euro NCAP’s protocol. You don’t need radar for Autopilot (we have Teslas both with and without radar), but if they say it’ll help with FSD, that would be a reasonable thesis to put forth (without arguing the merits of FSD). > Overall, the Model Y received an Adult Occupant Protection rating of 97%, a Child Occupant Production rating of 89%, a Vulnerable Road User Protection rating of 82%, and a near-perfect Safety Assist rating of 98%. The Model Y’s 98% score in the Euro NCAP’s safety assist category is especially impressive as these are related to features that utilize the company’s radar-less Tesla Vision system. > In fact, Model Y’s Safety Assist rating is the highest score among the vehicles that have been tested by the Euro NCAP to date. The Model Y’s stellar Adult Occupant Protection rating is also the highest thus far under the agency’s 2020-2022 rating criteria. Overall, the results of the Model Y’s safety tests prove one thing: vehicles equipped with Tesla Vision are just as safe — if not safer — than other vehicles out on the roads today. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31687408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31687408 https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-ncap-score-new-protocol/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-... https://electrek.co/2020/10/22/tesla-4d-radar-twice-range-self-driving/ https://electrek.co/2020/10/22/tesla-4d-radar-twice-range-se...

ra7 4y ago
> They’re going back because the supply chain has eased up and their internally developed hi res radar (“Phoenix”) is reaching production grade, so they no longer have to argue Vision is superior to keep shipping units post pandemic. In other words, they lied that vision-only is superior to having a radar, put out a blog post on how Tesla Vision is going to solve FSD and then sold a few hundred thousand cars without radar for over a year.
- 1letterunixname 4y ago
  Tying one hand behind their back in a fight proves only someone's ego is willing to take unnecessary risks than use every opportunity available. Elon is that type of a--hole who would gamble lives to be "right".
  - leobg 4y ago
    “Another person’s vanity only bothers us if it goes against our own.” —Nietzsche
    - 1letterunixname 4y ago
      Unfortunately, your trolling attempt is irrelevant to the facts such as being unable to see stationary objects in the road when traveling over 80 mph. Would you prefer a less safe and less capable vehicle to "prove" how "smart" you think you are while killing more passengers and bystanders? I suggest adding something of value in the future rather than try to look smart because you only appear to be a biased fool.
      - leobg 4y ago
        You are calling people a--holes and biased fools. Doesn't look to me at all as if you're interested in a discussion of sensors. My impression is that you have an axe to grind. Hence that quote. It points to the observation that when people get defensive about another person's ego, it usually means they see themselves somehow in a competition with that other person. Jung would have called it projection. Girard would have called it mimetic rivalry. None of that is an excuse for your dismissive attitude and name-calling, which really don't belong on HN.

Delemono 4y ago

Their ai model is quite impressive. Humans are also able to drive with vision only. Same sentiment as Hotz from comma.ai has. I also think that radar will be a no brainer and make it better over all (night, fog) but I'm not sure if it has to be a must. Perhaps in 20years when you have overall very good car AI the non radar version is always behind but we are far away from this market saturation. Probably more than 20 car iterations and more.

vlovich123 4y ago
> Humans are also able to drive with vision only. Same sentiment as Hotz from comma.ai has. I’ve said this before and I’ll repeat it here. A CMOS sensor is nothing like the human eye both in terms of HW and the SW (ignoring the AI that interprets the signal - I’m talking just in terms of the sensor). Your eye is constantly subconsciously scanning an insanely wide FOV so that not only do you have an insanely high-res image at the center, you have a fairly high fidelity larger FOV that is quite wide. Additionally, the camera will automatically shift its focus insanely fast if there’s any motion in your periphery and start filling in the scene with extremely high fidelity data. It’s hard to really equate the two but some analyses I’ve found on Google estimate the human eye at having hundreds of megapixels worth of fidelity. The Tesla has ~8 1 megapixel cameras. As for the intelligence behind the camera in terms of command and control, the human brain is significantly better. At some point in the future, sure. A pure vision system could be equivalent (actually better) to a human driver. Today it’s probably better in some ways (doesn’t have the attention failure modes that the human brain can suffer) but fatally worse in others (distinguishing the white trailer on a semi right in front with a cloud or understanding there’s a dividor right in front of you). Obviously things are going to get better so I’d bet on a pure vision system in a decade or two will probably work. The problem is Musk’s false advertising and the lives it’s cost.