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Yeah but what does browsers running JavaScript have to do with Emacs? Imagine if browsers ran lisp instead?

by lxe 4y ago

jrockway 4y ago
True, the rant kind of goes in the direction "I hate the web, and the web uses Javascript", which is kind of an irrelevant factoid. It's a very short rant, though, so maybe we shouldn't be reading into it this deeply.
pama 4y ago
If browsers ran lisp and the ecosystem was as advanced as that of elisp, then one could macro away some of the challenges of the modern web. If one liked to do so, they could opt to allow the execution of only GNU-compatible lisp code, and if people didn’t like losing one of their freedoms by a particular code segment, somebody else could modify the offending code and propagate it to a different part of the free web. Emacs is almost there. If there was a critical mass one could experiment a bit, but the vulnerabilities during the experimentation phase would likely kill such a project.
- coliveira 4y ago
  Emacs had (or still has) a web browser. The problem is that companies (starting with Netscape) took control of browser development, adding tons of both useful and useless features, with the goal of controlling the development of the web. Emacs and other projects cannot compete with that.
  - pama 4y ago
    I agree. I see a minor glimpse of hope with people using mastodon for communication, and basic clients running within Emacs; perhaps eventually one could also have a personal server running (or at least controlled) within Emacs. Once the extensions are in Lisp, new types of opportunities open up. Maybe one day blog posts could be using org mode natively and allow for local/interactive elisp or other babel-language execution. Maybe an extension of crdt within Emacs is all that’s needed for interactive shared documents by multiple users. The web could be interesting in new ways, just like the multiplayer online games of the eighties.
nequo 4y ago
I think his point is that browsers don’t run Lisp. The culture of (Emacs) Lisp keeps inspectability front and center. You can look up the source code for every function with C-h f and every keybinding with C-h k. But if Emacs supported JavaScript, the culture of JS, including code obfuscation, would probably come with it too. Or that’s the way that I interpret it.

Yeah but what does browsers running JavaScript have to do with Emacs? Imagine if browsers ran lisp instead?

by lxe 4y ago

Yeah but what does browsers running JavaScript have to do with Emacs? Imagine if browsers ran lisp instead?

True, the rant kind of goes in the direction "I hate the web, and the web uses Javascript", which is kind of an irrelevant factoid. It's a very short rant, though, so maybe we shouldn't be reading into it this deeply.

pama 4y ago

If browsers ran lisp and the ecosystem was as advanced as that of elisp, then one could macro away some of the challenges of the modern web. If one liked to do so, they could opt to allow the execution of only GNU-compatible lisp code, and if people didn’t like losing one of their freedoms by a particular code segment, somebody else could modify the offending code and propagate it to a different part of the free web. Emacs is almost there. If there was a critical mass one could experiment a bit, but the vulnerabilities during the experimentation phase would likely kill such a project.

coliveira 4y ago
Emacs had (or still has) a web browser. The problem is that companies (starting with Netscape) took control of browser development, adding tons of both useful and useless features, with the goal of controlling the development of the web. Emacs and other projects cannot compete with that.
- pama 4y ago
  I agree. I see a minor glimpse of hope with people using mastodon for communication, and basic clients running within Emacs; perhaps eventually one could also have a personal server running (or at least controlled) within Emacs. Once the extensions are in Lisp, new types of opportunities open up. Maybe one day blog posts could be using org mode natively and allow for local/interactive elisp or other babel-language execution. Maybe an extension of crdt within Emacs is all that’s needed for interactive shared documents by multiple users. The web could be interesting in new ways, just like the multiplayer online games of the eighties.

nequo 4y ago

I think his point is that browsers don’t run Lisp. The culture of (Emacs) Lisp keeps inspectability front and center. You can look up the source code for every function with C-h f and every keybinding with C-h k. But if Emacs supported JavaScript, the culture of JS, including code obfuscation, would probably come with it too. Or that’s the way that I interpret it.