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> adoption of smog controls and Big Auto's inability to implement them sanely … is what killed the American auto industry I would add: the inability to create

> adoption of smog controls and Big Auto's inability to implement them sanely … is what killed the American auto industry I would add: the inability to create a 4-cylinder engine that lasted beyond 60,000 miles (at least without significant work)

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>I would add: the inability to create a 4-cylinder engine that lasted beyond 60,000 miles (at least without significant work) Tell me you get your car info from Reddit without telling me you get your car info from Reddit. My eyes are rolling loops in my skull right now. Ford's Pinto engine, GM's Iron Duke and Chrysler's 2.whateverIforgetthename are all generally considered highly reliable engines. The competition was good too, Honda's E engine, Subaru's EA and Toyotas <insert alphabet soup here> are also held in high regard. The 80s was a great time for 4-banger engines. When you encounter an unreliable one it's generally a problem to the tune of a specific external system on a specific model and year range. The domestic's primary problem was they considered these small cars value priced economy cars and it showed in the fit and finish, ergonomics, available options and engineering quality all around, they were simply built to a price point in every way. So people preferred the generally nicer (and generally slightly more expensive) Japanese cars.
- pengaru 4y ago
  > Ford's Pinto engine, GM's Iron Duke and Chrysler's 2.whateverIforgetthename are all generally considered highly reliable engines. The only of these I have firsthand experience with would be the Iron Duke in the Fiero, and "highly reliable" is the last thing coming to mind. It had a plastic timing gear that liked to disintegrate FFS.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    You're confusing it with the GM V6 which was optional in the Fiero and had timing gears that tended to go out around 80-100k. Almost every OEM that used a gear timed engine has also used plastic composite timing gears over the years. They're less reliable than metal but not so much so as to really be an issue in practice. Ford 300s and their plastic gears last more or less as long as the owners are willing to run them. Just to really drive home that this is a "people forming opinions based on the badge on the grill" issue and not a "actual performance of the hardware" issue I'd like to point out that a) Grumman LLV which is the reliability darling of the internet is basically a Chevy S10 with a funny body on it and b) the Toyota 22R and RE, also fanboy favorites, eat timing guides and then the sprockets on a ~100k timeline if not equipped with the double roller version of the sprockets and chain.
    - pengaru 4y ago
      > You're confusing it with the GM V6 which was optional in the Fiero and had timing gears that tended to go out around 80-100k. No, I'm not. I worked as a shop assistant @ v8archie.com in my youth, and swapped out the Iron Duke in my 2.5l Fiero purchased with a busted rod (surprise surprise!) in favor of a 3.1 stroker v6 that started life as the 2.8. The Iron Duke was the absolute laughing stock in that shop and the community in general. Neither of these engines were particularly good, but the Iron Duke was notoriously bad. It took me under one minute with ddg search results to find this gem [0]: 'I have an '87 Sport Coupe with the 2.5L "Iron Duke". This past July, with 126,000 miles on the engine, the timing tear sheared off about 30% of its teeth and stopped the engine dead.' The Iron Duke was so bad it singlehandedly ruined the Fiero's reputation by having a tendency to throw rods through the block which then set the car on fire by blowing crankcase gases and oil on the hot cat below. Am I actually arguing with someone defending the Iron Duke on the internet first thing in the morning right now? On HN no less? What has the world come to. [0] http://www.calgaryfieros.com/OSGdocs/timing-gear.html http://www.calgaryfieros.com/OSGdocs/timing-gear.html
      - linksnapzz 4y ago
        Strictly speaking, many of the Tech4's problems in the Fiero were related to the shallow oil sump, necessary for packaging, that had it always effectively running a quart low. I can't say I had heard of one losing teeth on the timing gear-but I don't doubt it either. My biggest gripe was that during the design phase, balance shafts were left out for cost reasons-it feels and sounds far too industrial for a small car engine, relative to its output.
        pengaru 4y ago
        The rods were defective from the factory. But let's not ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to why the Iron Duke is absolute trash: 90hp from 2.5L
        linksnapzz 4y ago
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  I don’t get the Reddit reference because I don’t use reddit. I had many Mercury 4-cylinder cars in the 80s: Topaz, Zephyr, etc (Ford rebranded). They all sucked and didn’t last beyond 60,000 or 65,000 without thousands in engine work.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>I would add: the inability to create a 4-cylinder engine that lasted beyond 60,000 miles (at least without significant work) Tell me you get your car info from Reddit without telling me you get your car info from Reddit. My eyes are rolling loops in my skull right now. Ford's Pinto engine, GM's Iron Duke and Chrysler's 2.whateverIforgetthename are all generally considered highly reliable engines. The competition was good too, Honda's E engine, Subaru's EA and Toyotas <insert alphabet soup here> are also held in high regard. The 80s was a great time for 4-banger engines. When you encounter an unreliable one it's generally a problem to the tune of a specific external system on a specific model and year range. The domestic's primary problem was they considered these small cars value priced economy cars and it showed in the fit and finish, ergonomics, available options and engineering quality all around, they were simply built to a price point in every way. So people preferred the generally nicer (and generally slightly more expensive) Japanese cars.

pengaru 4y ago
> Ford's Pinto engine, GM's Iron Duke and Chrysler's 2.whateverIforgetthename are all generally considered highly reliable engines. The only of these I have firsthand experience with would be the Iron Duke in the Fiero, and "highly reliable" is the last thing coming to mind. It had a plastic timing gear that liked to disintegrate FFS.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  You're confusing it with the GM V6 which was optional in the Fiero and had timing gears that tended to go out around 80-100k. Almost every OEM that used a gear timed engine has also used plastic composite timing gears over the years. They're less reliable than metal but not so much so as to really be an issue in practice. Ford 300s and their plastic gears last more or less as long as the owners are willing to run them. Just to really drive home that this is a "people forming opinions based on the badge on the grill" issue and not a "actual performance of the hardware" issue I'd like to point out that a) Grumman LLV which is the reliability darling of the internet is basically a Chevy S10 with a funny body on it and b) the Toyota 22R and RE, also fanboy favorites, eat timing guides and then the sprockets on a ~100k timeline if not equipped with the double roller version of the sprockets and chain.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    > You're confusing it with the GM V6 which was optional in the Fiero and had timing gears that tended to go out around 80-100k. No, I'm not. I worked as a shop assistant @ v8archie.com in my youth, and swapped out the Iron Duke in my 2.5l Fiero purchased with a busted rod (surprise surprise!) in favor of a 3.1 stroker v6 that started life as the 2.8. The Iron Duke was the absolute laughing stock in that shop and the community in general. Neither of these engines were particularly good, but the Iron Duke was notoriously bad. It took me under one minute with ddg search results to find this gem [0]: 'I have an '87 Sport Coupe with the 2.5L "Iron Duke". This past July, with 126,000 miles on the engine, the timing tear sheared off about 30% of its teeth and stopped the engine dead.' The Iron Duke was so bad it singlehandedly ruined the Fiero's reputation by having a tendency to throw rods through the block which then set the car on fire by blowing crankcase gases and oil on the hot cat below. Am I actually arguing with someone defending the Iron Duke on the internet first thing in the morning right now? On HN no less? What has the world come to. [0] http://www.calgaryfieros.com/OSGdocs/timing-gear.html http://www.calgaryfieros.com/OSGdocs/timing-gear.html
    - linksnapzz 4y ago
      Strictly speaking, many of the Tech4's problems in the Fiero were related to the shallow oil sump, necessary for packaging, that had it always effectively running a quart low. I can't say I had heard of one losing teeth on the timing gear-but I don't doubt it either. My biggest gripe was that during the design phase, balance shafts were left out for cost reasons-it feels and sounds far too industrial for a small car engine, relative to its output.
      - pengaru 4y ago
        The rods were defective from the factory. But let's not ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to why the Iron Duke is absolute trash: 90hp from 2.5L
        linksnapzz 4y ago
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
I don’t get the Reddit reference because I don’t use reddit. I had many Mercury 4-cylinder cars in the 80s: Topaz, Zephyr, etc (Ford rebranded). They all sucked and didn’t last beyond 60,000 or 65,000 without thousands in engine work.