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Yeah. I know Americans tire of hearing about the rest of the world on this issue, but truly the only sane way for this to be is where you go to the hospital and

Yeah. I know Americans tire of hearing about the rest of the world on this issue, but truly the only sane way for this to be is where you go to the hospital and literally never see a bill. This is how it is in Canada. Our politicians are currently busy fighting over dental, optical, and prescription drugs [1], and truthfully that's just as baffling— why should going to the dentist be any different than going to the hospital? Is getting eyeglasses somehow "elective"? [1]: https://www.ndp.ca/better-care?focus=13934141 https://www.ndp.ca/better-care?focus=13934141

komali2 4y ago
Even if I put my capitalism hat on I don't understand why one would argue against socialized healthcare. You want productive workers, with the cost amortized across the entire population, don't you? You like that your workers have roads to drive on to get to work, right? You like that there's infrastructure you can leverage for them to make sales phone calls, surely? The entire value of your business is basically leveraged on the fact that there's a national and global supply chain infrastructure amortized by taxpayers, socialized, and nationalized programs, right?
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  Exactly, yeah. It really is baffling how both the argument against socialized medicine and the argument for socialized road infrastructure both somehow became about freedom— one is the freedom to choose where and when and whether to get care, and the other is the freedom to go wherever you want in your personal vehicle at no cost. Or maybe it's about what you didn't pay for? Freedom is not having to have your taxes pay for someone else's surgery, but roads are a good deal as long as you drive as much as possible on them? Anyway, as a four season bike commuter and mass transit fan, it seems to me that being a slave to automobile manufacturers and oil companies and urban sprawl is the opposite of freedom, but I don't have a century of concerted propaganda on my side for that position, so most people look at me like I have three heads.
- dmitrygr 4y ago
  > Even if I put my capitalism hat on I don't understand why one would argue against socialized healthcare. Honest answer: because currently my family and I have access to above-average care at below-average wait times due to having money. This will go away necessarily due to math. So asking people who are lucky enough to be in this position to support socialized healthcare is tantamount to asking them to value the lives of randoms more than those of their family.
  - mikepurvis 4y ago
    I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it, but from my point of view as another upper middle class person, my quality of life is also improved when my neighbours have the care they need. I don't want to have to live in a gated community so that I can shut out the lepers, and that extends to things like schools too— I want a public school system that gives every kid a decent chance of succeeding and that goes the extra mile to provide supports to those who face additional challenges at home. Even at the cost of a potential opportunity for my own kid. Most of the world is not a zero sum game: the solution to scarcity is to invest and make more of it, not to fight over the scraps. “I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.” — Stephen Jay Gould
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      > I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it I'll judge them for holding it. They want the benefits of a society, then they should support that society. Otherwise the message is that they're totally ok with having a slave labor class that drives their Uber for them and picks up their take out order for them, but fuck those people when they get sick.
      - dmitrygr 4y ago
        Yes, let me clarify: Fuck everyone and everything, if it extends the life of my family member by even a day. Judge me all you want
rjh29 4y ago
Japan has an interesting approach - you have health insurance that makes everything dirt cheap, but even without insurance they don't charge ridiculous American-style prices. While on holiday I saw a doctor for 3000yen ($20) and a dentist for 4500yen ($32 incl. x-ray and meds) without any local insurance. It's actually much better than the UK for dentists at least.
refurb 4y ago
Canada is also facing massive wait times. Plenty of people can't even get a family doctor, they simply aren't taking them any more. Manitoba is sending 300 spinal surgery patients to North Dakota because they can't clear the backlog any other way. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-surgeries-north-dakota-fargo-wfpcbc-cbc-1.6319862 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-surgeries-n...
- maxehmookau 4y ago
  Sure. Under the US system, they "fix" this problem by pricing people out of the queues and they end up dying. I could reduce the demand for anything if I'm allowed to arbitrarily raise its price.
  - refurb 4y ago
    So the alternative is apparently just the government enforcing a queue to the point people can't get the surgery they need? Is that better?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      Plenty of people already aren't getting the treatment they need under the US model, only difference will be that your access to treatment is not as directly correlated to your wealth.
      - refurb 4y ago
        That's not true since the lower income bands have Medicaid which is more generous than Canadian healthcare.
        thephyber 4y ago
        > Medicaid which is more generous than Canadian healthcare You assume that Medicaid is accepted. It's increasingly difficult to find providers that will accept it. From 2015: > A 2011 nationwide survey of doctors found 31 percent were “unwilling” to accept new Medicaid patients, with acceptance rates across states varying widely. Across the nation, the study estimated 69 percent of doctors were accepting Medicaid, but state acceptance rates ranged from a low of 40 percent in New Jersey to 99 percent in Wyoming, according to the study published in Health Affairs. This was pre-ACA expansion and prior to any reimbursement fee changes.[1] > When comparing reimbursement rates among health insurance plans, Medicaid is the lowest payer, meaning it’s not a moneymaker for doctors’ offices. Paired with the administrative requirements of accepting public insurance, doctors sometimes just don’t want the hassle.[1] [1] https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-insurance/articles/2015/05/26/youve-got-medicaid-why-cant-you-see-the-doctor https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-insurance/artic...

komali2 4y ago

Even if I put my capitalism hat on I don't understand why one would argue against socialized healthcare. You want productive workers, with the cost amortized across the entire population, don't you? You like that your workers have roads to drive on to get to work, right? You like that there's infrastructure you can leverage for them to make sales phone calls, surely? The entire value of your business is basically leveraged on the fact that there's a national and global supply chain infrastructure amortized by taxpayers, socialized, and nationalized programs, right?

mikepurvis 4y ago
Exactly, yeah. It really is baffling how both the argument against socialized medicine and the argument for socialized road infrastructure both somehow became about freedom— one is the freedom to choose where and when and whether to get care, and the other is the freedom to go wherever you want in your personal vehicle at no cost. Or maybe it's about what you didn't pay for? Freedom is not having to have your taxes pay for someone else's surgery, but roads are a good deal as long as you drive as much as possible on them? Anyway, as a four season bike commuter and mass transit fan, it seems to me that being a slave to automobile manufacturers and oil companies and urban sprawl is the opposite of freedom, but I don't have a century of concerted propaganda on my side for that position, so most people look at me like I have three heads.
dmitrygr 4y ago
> Even if I put my capitalism hat on I don't understand why one would argue against socialized healthcare. Honest answer: because currently my family and I have access to above-average care at below-average wait times due to having money. This will go away necessarily due to math. So asking people who are lucky enough to be in this position to support socialized healthcare is tantamount to asking them to value the lives of randoms more than those of their family.
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it, but from my point of view as another upper middle class person, my quality of life is also improved when my neighbours have the care they need. I don't want to have to live in a gated community so that I can shut out the lepers, and that extends to things like schools too— I want a public school system that gives every kid a decent chance of succeeding and that goes the extra mile to provide supports to those who face additional challenges at home. Even at the cost of a potential opportunity for my own kid. Most of the world is not a zero sum game: the solution to scarcity is to invest and make more of it, not to fight over the scraps. “I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.” — Stephen Jay Gould
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    > I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it I'll judge them for holding it. They want the benefits of a society, then they should support that society. Otherwise the message is that they're totally ok with having a slave labor class that drives their Uber for them and picks up their take out order for them, but fuck those people when they get sick.
    - dmitrygr 4y ago
      Yes, let me clarify: Fuck everyone and everything, if it extends the life of my family member by even a day. Judge me all you want

rjh29 4y ago

Japan has an interesting approach - you have health insurance that makes everything dirt cheap, but even without insurance they don't charge ridiculous American-style prices. While on holiday I saw a doctor for 3000yen ($20) and a dentist for 4500yen ($32 incl. x-ray and meds) without any local insurance. It's actually much better than the UK for dentists at least.

refurb 4y ago

Canada is also facing massive wait times. Plenty of people can't even get a family doctor, they simply aren't taking them any more. Manitoba is sending 300 spinal surgery patients to North Dakota because they can't clear the backlog any other way. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-surgeries-north-dakota-fargo-wfpcbc-cbc-1.6319862 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-surgeries-n...

maxehmookau 4y ago
Sure. Under the US system, they "fix" this problem by pricing people out of the queues and they end up dying. I could reduce the demand for anything if I'm allowed to arbitrarily raise its price.
- refurb 4y ago
  So the alternative is apparently just the government enforcing a queue to the point people can't get the surgery they need? Is that better?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    Plenty of people already aren't getting the treatment they need under the US model, only difference will be that your access to treatment is not as directly correlated to your wealth.
    - refurb 4y ago
      That's not true since the lower income bands have Medicaid which is more generous than Canadian healthcare.
      - thephyber 4y ago
        > Medicaid which is more generous than Canadian healthcare You assume that Medicaid is accepted. It's increasingly difficult to find providers that will accept it. From 2015: > A 2011 nationwide survey of doctors found 31 percent were “unwilling” to accept new Medicaid patients, with acceptance rates across states varying widely. Across the nation, the study estimated 69 percent of doctors were accepting Medicaid, but state acceptance rates ranged from a low of 40 percent in New Jersey to 99 percent in Wyoming, according to the study published in Health Affairs. This was pre-ACA expansion and prior to any reimbursement fee changes.[1] > When comparing reimbursement rates among health insurance plans, Medicaid is the lowest payer, meaning it’s not a moneymaker for doctors’ offices. Paired with the administrative requirements of accepting public insurance, doctors sometimes just don’t want the hassle.[1] [1] https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-insurance/articles/2015/05/26/youve-got-medicaid-why-cant-you-see-the-doctor https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-insurance/artic...