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> Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing To be clear, the pain someone is feeling is real but the "reality" of a condition is a bit of an u

> Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing To be clear, the pain someone is feeling is real but the "reality" of a condition is a bit of an unclear concept. We can't really address this until we try to control for the gendered expectations of the sufferer, their surroundings, and any observers. Suzie Green of Mermaids has said that some of their motivation in transing their son as a toddler was his father's discomfort with some of the toys he was playing with and the homosexual connotations. Likely if the boy had tolerant and unbiased parents he'd be happy as a man, and thus it's unlikely he truly had "gender dysphoria" unless you count whatever his parents conditioned into him. > and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people Again, hard to say given that the decision probably was not made in isolation from heavily gendered expectations. There's reason to think that removing those expectations would have made them at least as happy, if not more. > Transitioning is [...] treatment, and not [...] an assault on anyone's cultural, religious or political beliefs. For an adult it's a personal choice and we should have pretty wide latitude in things that only impact us. It becomes a societal and political issue when it's brought into schools, or when males are given access to women's spaces and opportunities. > And if it really is happening more to girls than boys, maybe consider if cultural sexism might cause some women to not want to identify as such anymore. Especially in the face of issues like rape, bodily autonomy, but also acceptable jobs and behaviours. Maybe we should be more tolerant of cross-dressing. Errr, that's the wrong takeaway. If a woman wasn't going to get promoted then her putting on pants won't help, and if she was going to get abused it wouldn't trick her attacker. We should work to remove or mitigate those problems so she doesn't feel the need to hide her true self. If a woman is thought to be able to avoid rape by dressing like a man and/or having surgeries to reduce her sexual attractiveness then women will be thought to be asking for it ("How was she dressed? Did she still have her breasts?") for not doing those things.

mcv 4y ago
> Suzie Green of Mermaids has said that some of their motivation in transing their son as a toddler was his father's discomfort with some of the toys he was playing with and the homosexual connotations. Excuse me, a toddler? A toddler and any kind of sexual connotations? I have no idea what you're talking about, but you're packing a lot of red flags in that sentence. > > and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people > Again, hard to say No, this part isn't hard to say. Whether in some cases strict gender expectations might cause gender dysphoria might be hard to say, but I know too many people for whom transitioning has been a very real solution to think it might be "hard to say" if it really did. We should definitely reduce restrictive gender expectations, but I don't think that's going to completely eliminate gender dysphoria.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > Excuse me, a toddler? A toddler and any kind of sexual connotations? Her words: “As a toddler, Jackie always headed for the dolls in toy shops.” In her Tedx talk, Green says that as soon as her baby boy “got mobile” “he was gravitating to things that you would think are stereotypically female”. [...] “the Polly Pocket and My Little Pony”, she says, and then quickly adds “that was fine – but not for Dad”. Green’s then husband disapproved of his son playing with My Little Pony toys and therefore banned them from the house. > I have no idea what you're talking about, but you're packing a lot of red flags in that sentence. Adults projecting their gender insecurities and stereotypes onto children should raise red flags. > I know too many people for whom transitioning has been a very real solution to think it might be "hard to say" if it really did. What do you mean by transition? Sex-change operations or "social transition"? Because if you mean the latter then a main part of it is to act in a way your internalized gender stereotypes wouldn't have let you, so of course kind of by definition you'll feel better. But it's hard to say the transition caused the improvement because they're also changing their expectations for themself at the same time. Could they have simply dropped the regressive stereotypes they were inflicting on themselves without declaring a new identity? I would save the phrase "it works" for something that we know works better than a null intervention and doesn't introduce any new problems.

mcv 4y ago

> Suzie Green of Mermaids has said that some of their motivation in transing their son as a toddler was his father's discomfort with some of the toys he was playing with and the homosexual connotations. Excuse me, a toddler? A toddler and any kind of sexual connotations? I have no idea what you're talking about, but you're packing a lot of red flags in that sentence. > > and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people > Again, hard to say No, this part isn't hard to say. Whether in some cases strict gender expectations might cause gender dysphoria might be hard to say, but I know too many people for whom transitioning has been a very real solution to think it might be "hard to say" if it really did. We should definitely reduce restrictive gender expectations, but I don't think that's going to completely eliminate gender dysphoria.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> Excuse me, a toddler? A toddler and any kind of sexual connotations? Her words: “As a toddler, Jackie always headed for the dolls in toy shops.” In her Tedx talk, Green says that as soon as her baby boy “got mobile” “he was gravitating to things that you would think are stereotypically female”. [...] “the Polly Pocket and My Little Pony”, she says, and then quickly adds “that was fine – but not for Dad”. Green’s then husband disapproved of his son playing with My Little Pony toys and therefore banned them from the house. > I have no idea what you're talking about, but you're packing a lot of red flags in that sentence. Adults projecting their gender insecurities and stereotypes onto children should raise red flags. > I know too many people for whom transitioning has been a very real solution to think it might be "hard to say" if it really did. What do you mean by transition? Sex-change operations or "social transition"? Because if you mean the latter then a main part of it is to act in a way your internalized gender stereotypes wouldn't have let you, so of course kind of by definition you'll feel better. But it's hard to say the transition caused the improvement because they're also changing their expectations for themself at the same time. Could they have simply dropped the regressive stereotypes they were inflicting on themselves without declaring a new identity? I would save the phrase "it works" for something that we know works better than a null intervention and doesn't introduce any new problems.