5 ms·

I appreciated this thoughtful response (rebuttal) to OP. I agree with your concept of "back in the 00s you'd never have a teacher scold a child for using wrong-

I appreciated this thoughtful response (rebuttal) to OP. I agree with your concept of "back in the 00s you'd never have a teacher scold a child for using wrong-sex clothes/toys because we'd largely gotten rid of the concept". This dovetails into one of the paradox's of the trans-adjacent ideology that I haven't been able to square in my own head, which is that transitioning genders is predicated on strong gender norms existing in a society. In other words, it seems less accepting to be a male and exhibit feminine traits (and by the way, we are in fact acknowledging traditional societal ideas of gender roles now, rather than moving beyond them).

zozbot234 4y ago
Even weirder is how those who don't acknowledge traditional societal ideas of gender roles are being directed to adopt an identity of their own: "non-binary" or "genderfluid". So the strong gender norms have now become a thoroughly self-reinforcing cycle: even if you disagree with them, you're just treated and reassigned in accordance with these same norms.
- deanCommie 4y ago
  There is a lot of debate and disagreement between those that are Transgender and those that are NonBinary. NB people will absolutely agree that rigorous gender norms are harmful, and Trans people are likely embracing and perpetuating an unnecessary binary. Meanwhile, Trans people will claim that the binary is real to them. Both are likely valid to some degree. There are multiple axis to this conversation.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    Someday people will learn about the difference between "bimodal" and "binary", and the critical importance of liminal spaces in real-world "binary" phenomena of all kinds.
deanCommie 4y ago
I'm OP, and I did not appreciate this rebuttal, and consider it alarmist and terrible. I responded here if you want to take a look: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33891710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33891710 To your point, though, there is an explanation there too. The word is complex and full of many intersecting axis of considerations. For example - it can be logically consistent to be both pro renewable energy investment of all kinds, but also be wary of nuclear power, and the long-term consequences to our world if we expand investment into it. It's not a simple solution. Turning off nuclear power plants to burn coal or gas is clearly terrible. Not investing in solar/wind/etc because nuclear plants seem better in teh short term is also not great. Likewise, the reality is that our society DOES contain strong gender norms. You might think we don't because women make up >50% of colleges, are in the professional world, and might believe other concepts like the wage gap are exaggerated. And those can be all true. But our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED. There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender). There are people who are working on "dismantling the patriarchy" and associated systems of capitalist economic systems, and other things that may or may not be reasonable, may or may not be possible, and may or may not make things worse. But the point is that some of those people are transgender. And some are not. It's an independent axis. Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender. Now, if you claim that a society should be more tolerant of being male and exhibiting feminine traits (and vice versa), I would agree with you. If you claimed that IF our society became that, there would likely be fewer transgender people, I would also theorize that is true. And if you believe that is a virtuous thing to pursue, let's both do so. But it's not a process that we can achieve overnight, and requires the support and progress of many others. Things have been progressing, but very slowly. Meanwhile, we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Why deny them this?
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED. There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender). Some things are pointlessly gendered, like pink/blue, or puffy sleeves, but others absolutely have a purpose, like single-sex spaces. > Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender. The problem is that trying to tear down GENDER norms by living as the other SEX. You're interfering with other people's spaces to culture-jam the patriarchy and they need those spaces for safety, but you're also conflating the stereotypes of a sex with the sex itself. > we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Most or all of that evidence is as flawed as the detransitioners study. Everyone is afraid to do any actual research in this area. That said there's ample evidence in every other area of mental health that says you should not affirm falsehood. > Why deny them this? They're denied nothing up until their gender presentation interferes with someone else's sex-based rights. Dress how you will, live how you will.

zozbot234 4y ago

Even weirder is how those who don't acknowledge traditional societal ideas of gender roles are being directed to adopt an identity of their own: "non-binary" or "genderfluid". So the strong gender norms have now become a thoroughly self-reinforcing cycle: even if you disagree with them, you're just treated and reassigned in accordance with these same norms.

deanCommie 4y ago
There is a lot of debate and disagreement between those that are Transgender and those that are NonBinary. NB people will absolutely agree that rigorous gender norms are harmful, and Trans people are likely embracing and perpetuating an unnecessary binary. Meanwhile, Trans people will claim that the binary is real to them. Both are likely valid to some degree. There are multiple axis to this conversation.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Someday people will learn about the difference between "bimodal" and "binary", and the critical importance of liminal spaces in real-world "binary" phenomena of all kinds.

deanCommie 4y ago

I'm OP, and I did not appreciate this rebuttal, and consider it alarmist and terrible. I responded here if you want to take a look: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33891710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33891710 To your point, though, there is an explanation there too. The word is complex and full of many intersecting axis of considerations. For example - it can be logically consistent to be both pro renewable energy investment of all kinds, but also be wary of nuclear power, and the long-term consequences to our world if we expand investment into it. It's not a simple solution. Turning off nuclear power plants to burn coal or gas is clearly terrible. Not investing in solar/wind/etc because nuclear plants seem better in teh short term is also not great. Likewise, the reality is that our society DOES contain strong gender norms. You might think we don't because women make up >50% of colleges, are in the professional world, and might believe other concepts like the wage gap are exaggerated. And those can be all true. But our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED. There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender). There are people who are working on "dismantling the patriarchy" and associated systems of capitalist economic systems, and other things that may or may not be reasonable, may or may not be possible, and may or may not make things worse. But the point is that some of those people are transgender. And some are not. It's an independent axis. Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender. Now, if you claim that a society should be more tolerant of being male and exhibiting feminine traits (and vice versa), I would agree with you. If you claimed that IF our society became that, there would likely be fewer transgender people, I would also theorize that is true. And if you believe that is a virtuous thing to pursue, let's both do so. But it's not a process that we can achieve overnight, and requires the support and progress of many others. Things have been progressing, but very slowly. Meanwhile, we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Why deny them this?

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED. There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender). Some things are pointlessly gendered, like pink/blue, or puffy sleeves, but others absolutely have a purpose, like single-sex spaces. > Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender. The problem is that trying to tear down GENDER norms by living as the other SEX. You're interfering with other people's spaces to culture-jam the patriarchy and they need those spaces for safety, but you're also conflating the stereotypes of a sex with the sex itself. > we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Most or all of that evidence is as flawed as the detransitioners study. Everyone is afraid to do any actual research in this area. That said there's ample evidence in every other area of mental health that says you should not affirm falsehood. > Why deny them this? They're denied nothing up until their gender presentation interferes with someone else's sex-based rights. Dress how you will, live how you will.