5 ms·

The Xinjiang Procedure

78 points by revorad 15y ago

spiffistan 15y ago
Well, that surely ruined my christmas spirit...
- revorad 15y ago
  Sorry, I did wonder whether to post it or not.
verroq 15y ago
This article isn't about harvesting organs from people that were going to die/dead/dying. This article accusing China of genocide against the Uighurs, which is complete bullshit.
- kachnuv_ocasek 15y ago
  Genocide against the Uighurs is bullshit? Oh, you. Now you'll tell us Tibet peacefully joined China in 1951, right?
  - verroq 15y ago
    Because slavery under Dalai Lama's system was much better right? You seem to think that it was a semi-utopia under Dalai Lama's rule, but it was still a backward, primitive system enforced and governed by religion.
    - anthonyb 15y ago
      It's still much better than being shot and having your organs cut out.
      - verroq 15y ago
        Much better than being executed in America and not have your organs cut out when it doesn't matter anyway. Also did you miss the part about the consent to donate organs? Good thing America's lethal injection poison the whole body and render it completely unusable even if they wanted to donate.
        Hontano 15y ago
        Sure it's a piece in a far right wing magazine with its own agenda to push, but you'll have to substantiate your claim of "complete bullshit". The Chinese government is well known for its supression entire ethnicities. But surely you'd agree having your organs cut out while you're still alive very much does matter, no? Or is it okay if it's done to particular kinds of people? If any of the article is true it's horrific.
        twoodfin 15y ago
        The Weekly Standard is only far right wing if you think the NYT is moderately right-of-center. You know where David Brooks used to write, yes?
        Hontano 15y ago
        Depends on what scope you're considering. You're right if you're talking about the US alone. But calling the NYT moderately right-of-center isn't far off the mark if you consider the wider Western media.
        barrkel 15y ago
        In the global scheme of things, almost all US press is right-wing, NYT too.
        verroq 15y ago
        The article didn't present any evidence of genocide. Only organ harvesting was substantiated.
        15y ago
    - kachnuv_ocasek 15y ago
      Wow, I think I'm going to disengage this conversation now. Václav Havel died last week. I was afraid of slow disappearance of the values he defended, but I see the Western pleb has very twisted values already.
      - verroq 15y ago
        I'm not saying what China is currently doing in XingJiang is right, but to deny that overthrowing Dalai Lama resulted in a better standard of life for Tibet's inhabitants is lunacy.
        4ad 15y ago
        Sure, arbitrary persecution of various ethnic groups is a good standard of life.
        est 15y ago
        Unlike Tibet, there are not only ethnic groups in Xinjiang, but also terrorist groups as dangerous as Al-Qaeda, e.g. East Turkestan group. They are directly linked with each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_Islamic_Movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_Islamic_Movement
        cperciva 15y ago
        Trying to improve someone's standard of living by force is almost inevitably doomed to fail. Canada tried that with its native population in the 20th century -- take children away from their backwards and uncivilized parents and raise them instead in residential schools -- and it was an utter disaster.
        drx 15y ago
        If anyone is as curious as I am: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sch...
        15y ago
    - todayiamme 15y ago
      >>> Because slavery under Dalai Lama's system was much better right? You seem to think that it was a semi-utopia under Dalai Lama's rule, but it was still a backward, primitive system enforced and governed by religion. <<< >>> The article didn't present any evidence of genocide. Only organ harvesting was substantiated. <<< (from : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3388828 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3388828 ) I've been on HN for a long time and this is the most disturbing thing I've ever read. The OP acknowledges that the practice of forcibly harvesting organs is being carried out, but defends the practice through nebulous hand waving. This sickens me. It's not about politics. It's not about countries. It's not about socio-economic doctrines and ideologies. It's about the extortion of the death of a conscious, living and sentient being. A being which possesses a high amount of self awareness. A being not too different from you and me. A being with strong, deep ties with other beings to form units such as "families". Imagine what the extermination, for this is exactly what this is, of such a being means and imagine the fact that this horror hasn't been carried out once, not twice but thousands of times. Over and over again. Horrific. (edit : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8222732.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8222732.stm )
  - est 15y ago
    Ok, I don't want to ruin the Xmas atmosphere, but unlike Tibetens, Uyghurs weren't the only natives in Xinjiang. Lots of Han Chinese, Mongols and Muslims habitat that land with Central Asians for centuries. There are tons of ethnical conflicts which could be Balkanized. Yes the Chinese government are surpressive, but it's because USSR tried to invade all Mideast Asia. There are shit ton of politics and history involved more than "Chinese want to genocide Uyghurs".
  - wisty 15y ago
    Well, it is dishonest to conflagrate the two issues - organ harvesting and the Uighur situation. Harvesting organs from condemned criminals is kind of messed up, but you can see why they do it. China has a big shortage of organ donors. It's fucked up if they are doing it in an inhumane way, but it has little to do with the Uighurs - most of the "donors" will be Han (though Uighurs will be disproportionately represented for a few reasons). The Uighur situation is also complicated. If China didn't invade, Xinjiang would probably be some basket-case like Kyrgyzstan or Tajikistan (both have a GDP per capita of about $850 / year). China has a GDP per capita of over $4,000, though Uighurs may be below average. On the other hand, the China hasn't always been a barrel of laughs. I'm not sure there was ever an "intent to destroy", which is part of the definition of genocide, but you wouldn't call the accusation "bullshit", either. I don't like the way the two issues are being packaged together, though.
blrgeek 15y ago
Warning - extremely disturbing read - and I've read a ton of crazy shit. As interesting as it was - I couldn't actually compel myself to complete reading this. Perhaps later.
- alf 15y ago
  I couldn't finish reading this either. It was too disturbing. Before anyone jumps to vilify the China or the Chinese for this, remember that these kinds of evils have historically been perpetuated by all people in the past or presently. This story is a chilling reminder: people are still belligerent, tribal animals, no matter how advanced our culture or technology.
yread 15y ago
flagged. What's next? articles from Falun gong?
- tptacek 15y ago
  I flagged it too, realizing (because you wrote that comment) that there is absolutely no reason this article belongs on HN --- even had it been well-sourced, what the fuck did this have to do with HN? Thanks for pointing that out. I've largely given up on flagging during the SOPApera.
hunterp 15y ago
If a "race" is good enough to harvest organs from, then this "race" must also be good enough to treat as equal and deserves full human rights under the UN bill of rights.
enimodas 15y ago
Apparently the article can't be trusted. Read comments on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/mw542/the_signals_may_be_faint_but_they_are_consistent/ http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/mw542/the_signal...
- tptacek 15y ago
  Was going to say the same thing. I didn't look at the masthead until I got to the part about the evil Islamic human rights organization that cared a lot about the reporter's Jewish name, whereupon I thought "what the" and, ahh, it's The Weekly Standard. Of course. Let's all be clearheaded about what's going on here: This is an article that says that the Chinese are rounding up protesters and warehousing them in military prisons until party officials show up with organ troubles, whereupon doctors are sent in to take blood from the prisoners to find matches so that those prisoners can be carefully executed (by gunshot) so that their organs can be harvested while the prisoner is still alive. This extraordinarily claim is backed up by... an anonymous source.
  - malandrew 15y ago
    I spent two weeks traveling in Xinjiang in 2006 and everything I saw suggested that it was an occupied territory. The most obvious sign is that the population almost everywhere you traveled were ethnic Uighur, but the police forces were all ethnically Han Chinese. Prior to visiting Xinjiang, I had lived 1 year in Beijing and Handan, Hebei for 6 months. The other detail that caught me off guard is that for 1.5 years, I had not seen a police officer with a gun. Every police officer in the East of the country had a baton, but no gun. In Xinjiang, not only were the police of obviously different ethnic origin, it was not uncommon to see them armed with handguns and occasionally with an assault rifle. I don't know anything really about the issue discussed in the article other than hearsay, but there is no doubt in my mind that Xinjiang is undergoing "ethnic cleansing" by dilution. AFAIK the same is happening in Tibet.
    - tptacek 15y ago
      One way of summarizing what you just wrote is: "I spent two weeks traveling in Xinjiang in 2006 and saw only ethnic Han policing the majority Uighur population, often unusually well-armed for Chinese police. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to report that the government of China is warehousing Uighur protesters in military prisons until party officials develop organ failure, whereupon prisoners are screened for blood/tissue matches and then murdered for their organs, which are removed while the prisoner is still alive." Put in that light you can see the problem with this discussion: that Uighurs (like many other populations in China) are subjected to intense human rights violations does not imply that a monstrous organ harvesting program is being run out of Chinese prisons.

78 points by revorad 15y ago

spiffistan 15y ago

Well, that surely ruined my christmas spirit...

revorad 15y ago
Sorry, I did wonder whether to post it or not.

verroq 15y ago

This article isn't about harvesting organs from people that were going to die/dead/dying. This article accusing China of genocide against the Uighurs, which is complete bullshit.

kachnuv_ocasek 15y ago
Genocide against the Uighurs is bullshit? Oh, you. Now you'll tell us Tibet peacefully joined China in 1951, right?
- verroq 15y ago
  Because slavery under Dalai Lama's system was much better right? You seem to think that it was a semi-utopia under Dalai Lama's rule, but it was still a backward, primitive system enforced and governed by religion.
  - anthonyb 15y ago
    It's still much better than being shot and having your organs cut out.
    - verroq 15y ago
      Much better than being executed in America and not have your organs cut out when it doesn't matter anyway. Also did you miss the part about the consent to donate organs? Good thing America's lethal injection poison the whole body and render it completely unusable even if they wanted to donate.
      - Hontano 15y ago
        Sure it's a piece in a far right wing magazine with its own agenda to push, but you'll have to substantiate your claim of "complete bullshit". The Chinese government is well known for its supression entire ethnicities. But surely you'd agree having your organs cut out while you're still alive very much does matter, no? Or is it okay if it's done to particular kinds of people? If any of the article is true it's horrific.
        twoodfin 15y ago
        The Weekly Standard is only far right wing if you think the NYT is moderately right-of-center. You know where David Brooks used to write, yes?
        Hontano 15y ago
        Depends on what scope you're considering. You're right if you're talking about the US alone. But calling the NYT moderately right-of-center isn't far off the mark if you consider the wider Western media.
        barrkel 15y ago
        In the global scheme of things, almost all US press is right-wing, NYT too.
        verroq 15y ago
        The article didn't present any evidence of genocide. Only organ harvesting was substantiated.
        15y ago
  - kachnuv_ocasek 15y ago
    Wow, I think I'm going to disengage this conversation now. Václav Havel died last week. I was afraid of slow disappearance of the values he defended, but I see the Western pleb has very twisted values already.
    - verroq 15y ago
      I'm not saying what China is currently doing in XingJiang is right, but to deny that overthrowing Dalai Lama resulted in a better standard of life for Tibet's inhabitants is lunacy.
      - 4ad 15y ago
        Sure, arbitrary persecution of various ethnic groups is a good standard of life.
        est 15y ago
        Unlike Tibet, there are not only ethnic groups in Xinjiang, but also terrorist groups as dangerous as Al-Qaeda, e.g. East Turkestan group. They are directly linked with each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_Islamic_Movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_Islamic_Movement
      - cperciva 15y ago
        Trying to improve someone's standard of living by force is almost inevitably doomed to fail. Canada tried that with its native population in the 20th century -- take children away from their backwards and uncivilized parents and raise them instead in residential schools -- and it was an utter disaster.
        drx 15y ago
        If anyone is as curious as I am: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sch...
        15y ago
  - todayiamme 15y ago
    >>> Because slavery under Dalai Lama's system was much better right? You seem to think that it was a semi-utopia under Dalai Lama's rule, but it was still a backward, primitive system enforced and governed by religion. <<< >>> The article didn't present any evidence of genocide. Only organ harvesting was substantiated. <<< (from : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3388828 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3388828 ) I've been on HN for a long time and this is the most disturbing thing I've ever read. The OP acknowledges that the practice of forcibly harvesting organs is being carried out, but defends the practice through nebulous hand waving. This sickens me. It's not about politics. It's not about countries. It's not about socio-economic doctrines and ideologies. It's about the extortion of the death of a conscious, living and sentient being. A being which possesses a high amount of self awareness. A being not too different from you and me. A being with strong, deep ties with other beings to form units such as "families". Imagine what the extermination, for this is exactly what this is, of such a being means and imagine the fact that this horror hasn't been carried out once, not twice but thousands of times. Over and over again. Horrific. (edit : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8222732.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8222732.stm )
- est 15y ago
  Ok, I don't want to ruin the Xmas atmosphere, but unlike Tibetens, Uyghurs weren't the only natives in Xinjiang. Lots of Han Chinese, Mongols and Muslims habitat that land with Central Asians for centuries. There are tons of ethnical conflicts which could be Balkanized. Yes the Chinese government are surpressive, but it's because USSR tried to invade all Mideast Asia. There are shit ton of politics and history involved more than "Chinese want to genocide Uyghurs".
- wisty 15y ago
  Well, it is dishonest to conflagrate the two issues - organ harvesting and the Uighur situation. Harvesting organs from condemned criminals is kind of messed up, but you can see why they do it. China has a big shortage of organ donors. It's fucked up if they are doing it in an inhumane way, but it has little to do with the Uighurs - most of the "donors" will be Han (though Uighurs will be disproportionately represented for a few reasons). The Uighur situation is also complicated. If China didn't invade, Xinjiang would probably be some basket-case like Kyrgyzstan or Tajikistan (both have a GDP per capita of about $850 / year). China has a GDP per capita of over $4,000, though Uighurs may be below average. On the other hand, the China hasn't always been a barrel of laughs. I'm not sure there was ever an "intent to destroy", which is part of the definition of genocide, but you wouldn't call the accusation "bullshit", either. I don't like the way the two issues are being packaged together, though.

blrgeek 15y ago

Warning - extremely disturbing read - and I've read a ton of crazy shit. As interesting as it was - I couldn't actually compel myself to complete reading this. Perhaps later.

alf 15y ago
I couldn't finish reading this either. It was too disturbing. Before anyone jumps to vilify the China or the Chinese for this, remember that these kinds of evils have historically been perpetuated by all people in the past or presently. This story is a chilling reminder: people are still belligerent, tribal animals, no matter how advanced our culture or technology.

yread 15y ago

flagged. What's next? articles from Falun gong?

tptacek 15y ago
I flagged it too, realizing (because you wrote that comment) that there is absolutely no reason this article belongs on HN --- even had it been well-sourced, what the fuck did this have to do with HN? Thanks for pointing that out. I've largely given up on flagging during the SOPApera.

hunterp 15y ago

If a "race" is good enough to harvest organs from, then this "race" must also be good enough to treat as equal and deserves full human rights under the UN bill of rights.

enimodas 15y ago

Apparently the article can't be trusted. Read comments on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/mw542/the_signals_may_be_faint_but_they_are_consistent/ http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/mw542/the_signal...

tptacek 15y ago
Was going to say the same thing. I didn't look at the masthead until I got to the part about the evil Islamic human rights organization that cared a lot about the reporter's Jewish name, whereupon I thought "what the" and, ahh, it's The Weekly Standard. Of course. Let's all be clearheaded about what's going on here: This is an article that says that the Chinese are rounding up protesters and warehousing them in military prisons until party officials show up with organ troubles, whereupon doctors are sent in to take blood from the prisoners to find matches so that those prisoners can be carefully executed (by gunshot) so that their organs can be harvested while the prisoner is still alive. This extraordinarily claim is backed up by... an anonymous source.
- malandrew 15y ago
  I spent two weeks traveling in Xinjiang in 2006 and everything I saw suggested that it was an occupied territory. The most obvious sign is that the population almost everywhere you traveled were ethnic Uighur, but the police forces were all ethnically Han Chinese. Prior to visiting Xinjiang, I had lived 1 year in Beijing and Handan, Hebei for 6 months. The other detail that caught me off guard is that for 1.5 years, I had not seen a police officer with a gun. Every police officer in the East of the country had a baton, but no gun. In Xinjiang, not only were the police of obviously different ethnic origin, it was not uncommon to see them armed with handguns and occasionally with an assault rifle. I don't know anything really about the issue discussed in the article other than hearsay, but there is no doubt in my mind that Xinjiang is undergoing "ethnic cleansing" by dilution. AFAIK the same is happening in Tibet.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    One way of summarizing what you just wrote is: "I spent two weeks traveling in Xinjiang in 2006 and saw only ethnic Han policing the majority Uighur population, often unusually well-armed for Chinese police. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to report that the government of China is warehousing Uighur protesters in military prisons until party officials develop organ failure, whereupon prisoners are screened for blood/tissue matches and then murdered for their organs, which are removed while the prisoner is still alive." Put in that light you can see the problem with this discussion: that Uighurs (like many other populations in China) are subjected to intense human rights violations does not imply that a monstrous organ harvesting program is being run out of Chinese prisons.