8 ms·

It's kind of astonishing how much deceit the US public has to put up from our own government. It puts such an astonishing lack of trust and stability in the sta

It's kind of astonishing how much deceit the US public has to put up from our own government. It puts such an astonishing lack of trust and stability in the state for most people. And suddenly everyone's shocked that rabid conspiracy theorists have regularly started infecting "normal" politics. It's like the intelligence community kept putting a band-aid over a massive infected wound, and now a limb is about to fall off.

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
Does the US have more deceit than other governments? If not, why would anyone care about how deceitful the government is if that is table stakes to operate?
- SQueeeeeL 4y ago
  I think it's more that it conflicts with our "fundamental values". There's a massive cognitive dissonance of being constantly told you're in a democracy and you're government is just, and then having elaborate state secrets kept under wraps for decades. Usually, the things that were classified are those which would make the public upset, yet they were done anyway. That is fundamentally a contradiction, undemocratic institutions in a democracy.
  - jsutton 4y ago
    The problem is that anything which is declassified for the US public is also declassified for the world. There are plenty of things we wouldn't want our adversaries knowing. This is why most democracies are Representative instead of Direct -- it's impossible to give everyone all the information they need to make informed decisions while keeping sensitive information secure. So, elect people of good character and competency to the offices that are privy to this kind of information. Educate the public on why this is important.
- yucky 4y ago
  If the deceit from within the US Government isn't #1 in the world, it's got to be top 3. People underestimate what it is exactly that our intelligence agencies do. Accepting that this is just "table stakes" is defeatist and simply not true.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > Does the US have more deceit than other governments? The US establishment descends from the earlier Angloamerican establishment format, which in turn descended from English aristocratic establishment of medieval ages. In that format, the aristocrats were intouchable by anyone other than the aristocrats higher than them, they were not responsible for anything they say, especially towards the commoners, and it was ok to flip-flop, 'change your mind', renege on your promises, lie and backstab. After all, these were your rights as the local feudal lord of your domain anyway. The French Revolution never having arrived in Britain, this aristocracy remained unchallenged in its privileges and its late Early-Modern Era culture formed on that basis, creating its own nature. This nature influenced their diplomatic, geopolitical dealings and alliances as well. To the extent that England, later Britain, gained a notoriety as 'the Perfidious Albion' for its constantly lying, flip-flopping, backstabbing politics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion The US elite was influenced and affected by other circumstances unlike the English elite. However the ancestral format and culture remained mostly the same: The American elite don't feel themselves responsible for anything other than their own interests, they don't see any problem with lying, 'changing their mind' and reneging on their promises, or backstabbing/betraying anyone and anything if their interests dictate so. They do it among themselves to each other, to their own voters, to their own institutions, and also in business and foreign policy. Its a cultural, unbroken paradigm. As a result, the American government and also the American corporations act the same way due to being populated by these elites. Since the same elite owns and controls the media too, the media acts in the same way - it can lie about anything without any qualms and zero feeling of responsibility towards its readers. This behavior is specific to the Angloamerican establishment. And it is due to the aristocracy never having been destroyed or castrated.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    >The US establishment descends from the earlier Angloamerican establishment format, which in turn descended from English aristocratic establishment of medieval ages. No, not really. >The French Revolution never having arrived in Britain But it did happen in the US. In fact the French Revolution was inspired by the American Revolution. >However the ancestral format and culture remained mostly the same Interesting how you acknowledge the flaw in your argument and then simply do not address it. >This behavior is specific to the Angloamerican establishment. And it is due to the aristocracy never having been destroyed or castrated. You have offered no evidence for this claim, which is extraordinary considering that there never was an aristocracy in the US. Unless by "aristocracy" you simply mean that the rich hold power, in which case that has nothing to do with Britan and exists in almost all countries.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Does the US have more deceit than other governments? It surely is more hypocritic about its deceit than other governments, being the "leader of the free world", arbiter of democracy, and such...
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >Does the US have more deceit than other governments? Absolutely it does. The annual budget for the CIA alone is $100 billion dollars, and we have more than 20 civilian 3-letter agencies including the NSA, DIA, ect, ect before even considering the "intel" branches of the military. The combined annual budget of our intelligence agencies exceeds the entire budget of many countries.
_8j50 4y ago
The reality is we the public are a bunch of babies and can get innocent individuals hurt by our bullshit. If you read the article, elderly people could get hurt or killed, is your curiosity really worth that price? I hear this sentiment in tech cicles and it is a shame how much being a grown up and understanding in this world secrets are required is no longer a thing. The whole point of electing people is that you trust them to make decisions without you directly having to be involve or know all the information. It's almost like people live in a bubble where organized crime, wars and social collapse don't exist
- SQueeeeeL 4y ago
  >The reality is we the public are a bunch of babies and can get innocent individuals hurt by our bullshit. If you read the article, elderly people could get hurt or killed, is your curiosity really worth that price? This kind of internalized paternalistic thinking (that the masses are these brutish savages that must be protected from themselves by some higher authority, who must always be trusted) is exactly what these systems rely on to stay in place. It is simple to go look at what has been declassified already, nothing that was done was for "the good of the people", it was all sketchy military and political actions to further entrench existing power.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    It is true, not savage but fearful and irrational. The systems should change but stay in place. You hire someone to do a job and you want to micromanage them basically. Whose declassified work upset you? Did you elect the oversight committee in congress that allowed it to happen or the president that ordered it? Mk-ultra? Contra? What's the problem? That's exactly the kind of stuff those people would do and they were elected with knowledge of their personality. You, the voter are responsible for voting for experienced people with good character that will govern well instead of the popular TV friendly face random corporates can buy for cheap. It is the voters fault.

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago

Does the US have more deceit than other governments? If not, why would anyone care about how deceitful the government is if that is table stakes to operate?

SQueeeeeL 4y ago
I think it's more that it conflicts with our "fundamental values". There's a massive cognitive dissonance of being constantly told you're in a democracy and you're government is just, and then having elaborate state secrets kept under wraps for decades. Usually, the things that were classified are those which would make the public upset, yet they were done anyway. That is fundamentally a contradiction, undemocratic institutions in a democracy.
- jsutton 4y ago
  The problem is that anything which is declassified for the US public is also declassified for the world. There are plenty of things we wouldn't want our adversaries knowing. This is why most democracies are Representative instead of Direct -- it's impossible to give everyone all the information they need to make informed decisions while keeping sensitive information secure. So, elect people of good character and competency to the offices that are privy to this kind of information. Educate the public on why this is important.
yucky 4y ago
If the deceit from within the US Government isn't #1 in the world, it's got to be top 3. People underestimate what it is exactly that our intelligence agencies do. Accepting that this is just "table stakes" is defeatist and simply not true.
unity1001 4y ago
> Does the US have more deceit than other governments? The US establishment descends from the earlier Angloamerican establishment format, which in turn descended from English aristocratic establishment of medieval ages. In that format, the aristocrats were intouchable by anyone other than the aristocrats higher than them, they were not responsible for anything they say, especially towards the commoners, and it was ok to flip-flop, 'change your mind', renege on your promises, lie and backstab. After all, these were your rights as the local feudal lord of your domain anyway. The French Revolution never having arrived in Britain, this aristocracy remained unchallenged in its privileges and its late Early-Modern Era culture formed on that basis, creating its own nature. This nature influenced their diplomatic, geopolitical dealings and alliances as well. To the extent that England, later Britain, gained a notoriety as 'the Perfidious Albion' for its constantly lying, flip-flopping, backstabbing politics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion The US elite was influenced and affected by other circumstances unlike the English elite. However the ancestral format and culture remained mostly the same: The American elite don't feel themselves responsible for anything other than their own interests, they don't see any problem with lying, 'changing their mind' and reneging on their promises, or backstabbing/betraying anyone and anything if their interests dictate so. They do it among themselves to each other, to their own voters, to their own institutions, and also in business and foreign policy. Its a cultural, unbroken paradigm. As a result, the American government and also the American corporations act the same way due to being populated by these elites. Since the same elite owns and controls the media too, the media acts in the same way - it can lie about anything without any qualms and zero feeling of responsibility towards its readers. This behavior is specific to the Angloamerican establishment. And it is due to the aristocracy never having been destroyed or castrated.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  >The US establishment descends from the earlier Angloamerican establishment format, which in turn descended from English aristocratic establishment of medieval ages. No, not really. >The French Revolution never having arrived in Britain But it did happen in the US. In fact the French Revolution was inspired by the American Revolution. >However the ancestral format and culture remained mostly the same Interesting how you acknowledge the flaw in your argument and then simply do not address it. >This behavior is specific to the Angloamerican establishment. And it is due to the aristocracy never having been destroyed or castrated. You have offered no evidence for this claim, which is extraordinary considering that there never was an aristocracy in the US. Unless by "aristocracy" you simply mean that the rich hold power, in which case that has nothing to do with Britan and exists in almost all countries.
coldtea 4y ago
>Does the US have more deceit than other governments? It surely is more hypocritic about its deceit than other governments, being the "leader of the free world", arbiter of democracy, and such...
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>Does the US have more deceit than other governments? Absolutely it does. The annual budget for the CIA alone is $100 billion dollars, and we have more than 20 civilian 3-letter agencies including the NSA, DIA, ect, ect before even considering the "intel" branches of the military. The combined annual budget of our intelligence agencies exceeds the entire budget of many countries.

_8j50 4y ago

The reality is we the public are a bunch of babies and can get innocent individuals hurt by our bullshit. If you read the article, elderly people could get hurt or killed, is your curiosity really worth that price? I hear this sentiment in tech cicles and it is a shame how much being a grown up and understanding in this world secrets are required is no longer a thing. The whole point of electing people is that you trust them to make decisions without you directly having to be involve or know all the information. It's almost like people live in a bubble where organized crime, wars and social collapse don't exist

SQueeeeeL 4y ago
>The reality is we the public are a bunch of babies and can get innocent individuals hurt by our bullshit. If you read the article, elderly people could get hurt or killed, is your curiosity really worth that price? This kind of internalized paternalistic thinking (that the masses are these brutish savages that must be protected from themselves by some higher authority, who must always be trusted) is exactly what these systems rely on to stay in place. It is simple to go look at what has been declassified already, nothing that was done was for "the good of the people", it was all sketchy military and political actions to further entrench existing power.
- _8j50 4y ago
  It is true, not savage but fearful and irrational. The systems should change but stay in place. You hire someone to do a job and you want to micromanage them basically. Whose declassified work upset you? Did you elect the oversight committee in congress that allowed it to happen or the president that ordered it? Mk-ultra? Contra? What's the problem? That's exactly the kind of stuff those people would do and they were elected with knowledge of their personality. You, the voter are responsible for voting for experienced people with good character that will govern well instead of the popular TV friendly face random corporates can buy for cheap. It is the voters fault.