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Electric cars can not possibly exist on a large scale outside of massive investments in energy infrastructure. I don't even know what to say anymore. How much

Electric cars can not possibly exist on a large scale outside of massive investments in energy infrastructure. I don't even know what to say anymore. How much will energy production rise in your country during its transition to renewables?

ethagknight 4y ago
Saying "can not possibly exist" is just a bad way to start an argument. No one is arguing that absolutely no changes to the grid shall take place. New power plants will be built as needed to handle future loads. The loads will be handled in the same way massive city growth has always been handled; through market-based pricing strategies and development of new production. Europe is undergoing major geopolitical conflict, adding unique and massive stress to the system. European will cope and adapt.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  >No one is arguing that absolutely no changes to the grid shall take place. Yes. In fact one common demand is an almost total replacement of current fossil and nuclear plants. The viability of electric cars is directly related to the local price of electricity. If you want to see more electric cars on the street the first step should be to reduce the price of energy and the stability of the infrastructure. EU countries are planning to ban fossil fuel powered cars in the next decade, is energy production actually catching up? Or to rephrase: when will Germany stop being the country with one of the highest energy prices in the world?
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    "The viability of electric cars is directly related to the local price of electricity." Is there anywhere on earth where gas is cheaper than electricity? Outside of like the middle east maybe. I suppose you'd have to remove gas taxes for a clearer picture. But that just shows that the government can make electric viable whenever they want by raising gas prices.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      > Is there anywhere on earth where gas is cheaper than electricity? This is a bit complicated, since the two are not directly equivalent. But as an example example, we can compare a 30mpg car with an EV rated at .24kWh/mile (advertised consumption for a Tesla Model 3). 250 miles would be around 60kWh or 8.33 gallons. Power averages (in the US) around $0.20 per kWh right now, gas about $3.38 per gallon. There's a lot of variance by state for both of these, of course. And so, for 250 miles, gas would be $28.16, whereas electricity would be $12. So the answer to your question is: Probably. It's only around 2.5x difference in price, which could easily be inverted somewhere that has a significant oil supply but low power generation capability.
    - stephen999 4y ago
      I have a Toyota rav4 plugin in europe. Gas costs 1.7€/liter, gets about 6l/100km for about 10.7 cents per km. On electric it goes about 73km for 14kwh which costs about .60€ per kWh which is about 11.3 cents per kWh. Of course the at-home rate is about half this cost so you will do better there, but fast-charge rates are about the same gas and electric.
pjkundert 4y ago
So you’re saying that terawatt hours of grid connected storage with highly efficient inverters … cannot support the grid during the transition? EDIT: for those not paying attention, the ability to provide grid-tied on-demand power has been in the Tesla since the original roadster. The fact that most people complaining about imminent grid collapse don’t know this (or don’t realize what it means, or don’t care) makes this debate tiresome.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  Energy storage doesn't generate energy. Energy storge does not decrease the usage of energy infastructure or the need to maintain it. The need for storage depends on the type of power that is being generated. E.g. a nuclear powerplant can easily change its production, a solar panel or wind turbine can not, that requires renewables to rely on over production and storage for continous delivery. Btw. there isn't enough lithium in the world to make this happen globally.
  - pjkundert 4y ago
    As always; - there is plenty of excess off-peak power available; grid collapse happens at the peaks. - Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand. So long as the 24-hour average demand was satisfied by the grid supply, the grid would do fine.
    - constantcrying 4y ago
      >- there is plenty of excess off-peak power available; grid collapse happens at the peaks. And? >- Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand. There still is not enough. It isn't even close. My point was that energy storage doesn't solve the problem of total under supply and a need for increased grid infrastructure.
iso1631 4y ago
Electric cars connected to the grid provides massive amounts of distributed storage, perfect for intermittent supplies and to smooth peak usage.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  There isn't enough lithium in the world to make that possible globally. It also doesn't solve any of the other problems.
theironhammer 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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ethagknight 4y ago

Saying "can not possibly exist" is just a bad way to start an argument. No one is arguing that absolutely no changes to the grid shall take place. New power plants will be built as needed to handle future loads. The loads will be handled in the same way massive city growth has always been handled; through market-based pricing strategies and development of new production. Europe is undergoing major geopolitical conflict, adding unique and massive stress to the system. European will cope and adapt.

constantcrying 4y ago
>No one is arguing that absolutely no changes to the grid shall take place. Yes. In fact one common demand is an almost total replacement of current fossil and nuclear plants. The viability of electric cars is directly related to the local price of electricity. If you want to see more electric cars on the street the first step should be to reduce the price of energy and the stability of the infrastructure. EU countries are planning to ban fossil fuel powered cars in the next decade, is energy production actually catching up? Or to rephrase: when will Germany stop being the country with one of the highest energy prices in the world?
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  "The viability of electric cars is directly related to the local price of electricity." Is there anywhere on earth where gas is cheaper than electricity? Outside of like the middle east maybe. I suppose you'd have to remove gas taxes for a clearer picture. But that just shows that the government can make electric viable whenever they want by raising gas prices.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    > Is there anywhere on earth where gas is cheaper than electricity? This is a bit complicated, since the two are not directly equivalent. But as an example example, we can compare a 30mpg car with an EV rated at .24kWh/mile (advertised consumption for a Tesla Model 3). 250 miles would be around 60kWh or 8.33 gallons. Power averages (in the US) around $0.20 per kWh right now, gas about $3.38 per gallon. There's a lot of variance by state for both of these, of course. And so, for 250 miles, gas would be $28.16, whereas electricity would be $12. So the answer to your question is: Probably. It's only around 2.5x difference in price, which could easily be inverted somewhere that has a significant oil supply but low power generation capability.
  - stephen999 4y ago
    I have a Toyota rav4 plugin in europe. Gas costs 1.7€/liter, gets about 6l/100km for about 10.7 cents per km. On electric it goes about 73km for 14kwh which costs about .60€ per kWh which is about 11.3 cents per kWh. Of course the at-home rate is about half this cost so you will do better there, but fast-charge rates are about the same gas and electric.

pjkundert 4y ago

So you’re saying that terawatt hours of grid connected storage with highly efficient inverters … cannot support the grid during the transition? EDIT: for those not paying attention, the ability to provide grid-tied on-demand power has been in the Tesla since the original roadster. The fact that most people complaining about imminent grid collapse don’t know this (or don’t realize what it means, or don’t care) makes this debate tiresome.

constantcrying 4y ago
Energy storage doesn't generate energy. Energy storge does not decrease the usage of energy infastructure or the need to maintain it. The need for storage depends on the type of power that is being generated. E.g. a nuclear powerplant can easily change its production, a solar panel or wind turbine can not, that requires renewables to rely on over production and storage for continous delivery. Btw. there isn't enough lithium in the world to make this happen globally.
- pjkundert 4y ago
  As always; - there is plenty of excess off-peak power available; grid collapse happens at the peaks. - Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand. So long as the 24-hour average demand was satisfied by the grid supply, the grid would do fine.
  - constantcrying 4y ago
    >- there is plenty of excess off-peak power available; grid collapse happens at the peaks. And? >- Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand. There still is not enough. It isn't even close. My point was that energy storage doesn't solve the problem of total under supply and a need for increased grid infrastructure.

iso1631 4y ago

Electric cars connected to the grid provides massive amounts of distributed storage, perfect for intermittent supplies and to smooth peak usage.

constantcrying 4y ago
There isn't enough lithium in the world to make that possible globally. It also doesn't solve any of the other problems.

theironhammer 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]