5 ms·

AirTags or other “tracking devices” are not illegal. We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we

AirTags or other “tracking devices” are not illegal. We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we? Do we sue knife companies when someone stabs someone using one of their knives? AirTags, like knives, are a useful tool that can also be used for purposes which are either illegal or borderline illegal. But we have so many tools which are like that, are we going to sue every company that sells something that could be used nefariously?

tyingq 4y ago
Presumably the case would focus on marketing claims of protection against this kind of use versus reality, or basic due diligence, etc. A gun company that claimed specific protective features that didn't work, or missed some obvious base safety features would probably get sued, yes. I don't know enough about the product to know if any of that has any merit, but I assume that's what the plaintiffs will try to prove.
- bombcar 4y ago
  There are many cases, such as: https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer-p320-pistol/42153865 https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer... In this cause the suit is that the gun is defective, it can fire without a trigger pull. The Apple suit is claiming negligence on the part of Apple because they did NOT do something "simple" to prevent tracking. It'll likely come down to whether that "simple" thing actually was, whether it was known, etc, etc. How a product is marketed can also come into play, which is why Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes.
  - tyingq 4y ago
    >Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes They have talked about it: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-and-unwanted-tracking/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-a... Even on the main product page (https://www.apple.com/airtag/ https://www.apple.com/airtag/) ..."AirTag is designed to discourage unwanted tracking".
    - bombcar 4y ago
      That's talking how it can't (or shouldn't) be used for crimes, but it starts to get a little close to Mr Incredible telling the old lady what not to do at some point, and that can be the point the lawyers aim at.
darknavi 4y ago
> We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we? People do all the time[0]. Do they win? Not sure. 0. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/29/uvalde-shooting-lawsuit-gun-maker/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/29/uvalde-shooting-laws...
black_puppydog 4y ago
I love how you're putting guns and knives into the same category here. They're actually a nice example for how a difference in quantity (deadliness) becomes a difference in quality. Which is why anyone can buy a knife pretty much anywhere in the world, while most of the "civilized" world puts heavy (heavy) constraints on who gets to carry fire arms. But I'm sure the countries that neither control who gets one nor require much training before they get it are doing juuuust fine. /s
- kneebonian 4y ago
  > Which is why anyone can buy a knife pretty much anywhere in the world Not quite true. I went to AUS a couple of years ago with a pocket knife, at one point I took it out to cut something and someone mentioned to me that a knife like that was illegal in AUS so I had to keep it hidden in the hotel the rest of the trip.
  - rahimnathwani 4y ago
    In the UK, you can buy a knife like that, but you it might be illegal to carry it around in your pocket.
    - everforward 4y ago
      Some places ban knives based on the opening mechanism. E.g. from what I can tell the UK bans spring-assisted opening knives (switchblades in colloquial terms).
      - rahimnathwani 4y ago
        The government web site: https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives "It’s also illegal to: carry most knives or any weapons in public without a ‘good reason’" "A court will decide if you’ve got a good reason to carry a knife or a weapon if you’re charged with carrying it illegally."
zaphod12 4y ago
This is because their is a federal law that says gun companies aren't liable. Prior to the passing of this law, the NRA argued that without it, gun companies would all go out of business because they'd be sued into oblivion. The families of the children murdered at Sandy Hook have sued gun companies and succeeded (at least to some degree, they settled) through a workaround of the federal law. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/15/nyregion/sandy-hook-families-settlement.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/15/nyregion/sandy-hook-famil...
tiahura 4y ago
The argument here is that Apple's design of IOS was negligent as it failed to protect from stalking.
lesuorac 4y ago
> We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we? Do we sue knife companies when someone stabs someone using one of their knives? _You_, don't sue gun companies. Don't project. Plenty of other people do and get money from it.

tyingq 4y ago

Presumably the case would focus on marketing claims of protection against this kind of use versus reality, or basic due diligence, etc. A gun company that claimed specific protective features that didn't work, or missed some obvious base safety features would probably get sued, yes. I don't know enough about the product to know if any of that has any merit, but I assume that's what the plaintiffs will try to prove.

bombcar 4y ago
There are many cases, such as: https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer-p320-pistol/42153865 https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer... In this cause the suit is that the gun is defective, it can fire without a trigger pull. The Apple suit is claiming negligence on the part of Apple because they did NOT do something "simple" to prevent tracking. It'll likely come down to whether that "simple" thing actually was, whether it was known, etc, etc. How a product is marketed can also come into play, which is why Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes.
- tyingq 4y ago
  >Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes They have talked about it: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-and-unwanted-tracking/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-a... Even on the main product page (https://www.apple.com/airtag/ https://www.apple.com/airtag/) ..."AirTag is designed to discourage unwanted tracking".
  - bombcar 4y ago
    That's talking how it can't (or shouldn't) be used for crimes, but it starts to get a little close to Mr Incredible telling the old lady what not to do at some point, and that can be the point the lawyers aim at.

darknavi 4y ago

> We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we? People do all the time[0]. Do they win? Not sure. 0. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/29/uvalde-shooting-lawsuit-gun-maker/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/29/uvalde-shooting-laws...

black_puppydog 4y ago

I love how you're putting guns and knives into the same category here. They're actually a nice example for how a difference in quantity (deadliness) becomes a difference in quality. Which is why anyone can buy a knife pretty much anywhere in the world, while most of the "civilized" world puts heavy (heavy) constraints on who gets to carry fire arms. But I'm sure the countries that neither control who gets one nor require much training before they get it are doing juuuust fine. /s

kneebonian 4y ago
> Which is why anyone can buy a knife pretty much anywhere in the world Not quite true. I went to AUS a couple of years ago with a pocket knife, at one point I took it out to cut something and someone mentioned to me that a knife like that was illegal in AUS so I had to keep it hidden in the hotel the rest of the trip.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  In the UK, you can buy a knife like that, but you it might be illegal to carry it around in your pocket.
  - everforward 4y ago
    Some places ban knives based on the opening mechanism. E.g. from what I can tell the UK bans spring-assisted opening knives (switchblades in colloquial terms).
    - rahimnathwani 4y ago
      The government web site: https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives "It’s also illegal to: carry most knives or any weapons in public without a ‘good reason’" "A court will decide if you’ve got a good reason to carry a knife or a weapon if you’re charged with carrying it illegally."

zaphod12 4y ago

This is because their is a federal law that says gun companies aren't liable. Prior to the passing of this law, the NRA argued that without it, gun companies would all go out of business because they'd be sued into oblivion. The families of the children murdered at Sandy Hook have sued gun companies and succeeded (at least to some degree, they settled) through a workaround of the federal law. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/15/nyregion/sandy-hook-families-settlement.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/15/nyregion/sandy-hook-famil...

tiahura 4y ago

The argument here is that Apple's design of IOS was negligent as it failed to protect from stalking.

lesuorac 4y ago

> We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we? Do we sue knife companies when someone stabs someone using one of their knives? _You_, don't sue gun companies. Don't project. Plenty of other people do and get money from it.