6 ms·

That Apple's system uses the huge existing network of "every iphone" does reduce the barrier to entry quite a lot. It's cheaper, doesn't require as much techni

by tyingq 4y ago

That Apple's system uses the huge existing network of "every iphone" does reduce the barrier to entry quite a lot. It's cheaper, doesn't require as much technical knowledge, placement considerations for GPS antennas, power source for hungrier devices, etc. And Apple did tout the features intended to discourage it being used this way.

josefresco 4y ago
> That Apple's system uses the huge existing network of "every iphone" does reduce the barrier to entry quite a lot. I bought a handful of Tiles to track my ATV/snowmobile that I leave out of state. Even when they're in my driveway, well within my Wi-Fi range they do not work. I'm going to ditch them for AirTags.
- chipsa 4y ago
  Tiles need Bluetooth to work, not Wi-Fi.
  - josefresco 4y ago
    Wow. I feel like an idiot. Despite mentioning "GPS" several times in their copy, it does seem that Bluetooth is the only way to "find" a device. I still don't understand how the "GPS" part of their trackers work. Anyone have details? I'm going to remove them and attach to "household" items instead.
    - tyingq 4y ago
      The GPS part is just the tiles talking to any tile-enabled phone. The GPS is only in the phones, like: Any tile-enabled phone -> sees a tile -> sends a packet to the Tile mothership with the tile UUID + phone location. (Plus perhaps some nuances like guessing a more specific location for the tag based on bluetooth radio data)
    - sorenjan 4y ago
      Tile and Airtags works the same way. They broadcast a unique serial number over BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy), and phones and other devices nearby detects those. The phone sends this serial number together with its location to a server, which then tells the registered owner of the tag where it is. To find it locally the simpler ones just use received signal strength over Bluetooth, Airtags and iPhones have a more sophisticated system with a higher frequency radio with better localization, I don't remember the details. It's this first system where other devices take part in a huge sensor network that makes Airtags so powerful, there a lot of iOS devices out there and crucially they all run this code in the background. Tiles will never work as well, because you won't get the same number of people willingly running their app all the time. It's a network effect more than a technical problem.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- crhulls 4y ago
  Hi, I'm the CEO of Life360 and we recently bought Tile. We run on 13% of all iPhones in the US, and have Android coverage, and we are turning on our network to scan for Tile devices. We will have much closer parity to iOS very soon - in fact it is already happening. We do not use wifi - as to other commenters it is bluetooth only, but we have some other big plans in the works.
  - josefresco 4y ago
    Thanks for chiming in. Looks like it was my mistake in interpreting your product features. I'm going to attach them to household items but I'm still perplexed why each of my Tiles hasn't been "seen" in over a year yet I've ridden my ATV/snowmobile a handful of times during that period, all while having my phone in my pocket. Does the iOS app need to be open?
    - crhulls 4y ago
      No, it doesn't need to be open. If you send me a note at chris at life360.com I'll investigate why it isn't working. I'm curious myself and we only recently completed our acquisition of the company.
saberience 4y ago
AirTags or other “tracking devices” are not illegal. We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we? Do we sue knife companies when someone stabs someone using one of their knives? AirTags, like knives, are a useful tool that can also be used for purposes which are either illegal or borderline illegal. But we have so many tools which are like that, are we going to sue every company that sells something that could be used nefariously?
- tyingq 4y ago
  Presumably the case would focus on marketing claims of protection against this kind of use versus reality, or basic due diligence, etc. A gun company that claimed specific protective features that didn't work, or missed some obvious base safety features would probably get sued, yes. I don't know enough about the product to know if any of that has any merit, but I assume that's what the plaintiffs will try to prove.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    There are many cases, such as: https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer-p320-pistol/42153865 https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer... In this cause the suit is that the gun is defective, it can fire without a trigger pull. The Apple suit is claiming negligence on the part of Apple because they did NOT do something "simple" to prevent tracking. It'll likely come down to whether that "simple" thing actually was, whether it was known, etc, etc. How a product is marketed can also come into play, which is why Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes.
    - tyingq 4y ago
      >Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes They have talked about it: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-and-unwanted-tracking/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-a... Even on the main product page (https://www.apple.com/airtag/ https://www.apple.com/airtag/) ..."AirTag is designed to discourage unwanted tracking".
graywh 4y ago
any civilian could even leverage someone's own Apple device to track them

by tyingq 4y ago

josefresco 4y ago

> That Apple's system uses the huge existing network of "every iphone" does reduce the barrier to entry quite a lot. I bought a handful of Tiles to track my ATV/snowmobile that I leave out of state. Even when they're in my driveway, well within my Wi-Fi range they do not work. I'm going to ditch them for AirTags.

chipsa 4y ago
Tiles need Bluetooth to work, not Wi-Fi.
- josefresco 4y ago
  Wow. I feel like an idiot. Despite mentioning "GPS" several times in their copy, it does seem that Bluetooth is the only way to "find" a device. I still don't understand how the "GPS" part of their trackers work. Anyone have details? I'm going to remove them and attach to "household" items instead.
  - tyingq 4y ago
    The GPS part is just the tiles talking to any tile-enabled phone. The GPS is only in the phones, like: Any tile-enabled phone -> sees a tile -> sends a packet to the Tile mothership with the tile UUID + phone location. (Plus perhaps some nuances like guessing a more specific location for the tag based on bluetooth radio data)
  - sorenjan 4y ago
    Tile and Airtags works the same way. They broadcast a unique serial number over BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy), and phones and other devices nearby detects those. The phone sends this serial number together with its location to a server, which then tells the registered owner of the tag where it is. To find it locally the simpler ones just use received signal strength over Bluetooth, Airtags and iPhones have a more sophisticated system with a higher frequency radio with better localization, I don't remember the details. It's this first system where other devices take part in a huge sensor network that makes Airtags so powerful, there a lot of iOS devices out there and crucially they all run this code in the background. Tiles will never work as well, because you won't get the same number of people willingly running their app all the time. It's a network effect more than a technical problem.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
crhulls 4y ago
Hi, I'm the CEO of Life360 and we recently bought Tile. We run on 13% of all iPhones in the US, and have Android coverage, and we are turning on our network to scan for Tile devices. We will have much closer parity to iOS very soon - in fact it is already happening. We do not use wifi - as to other commenters it is bluetooth only, but we have some other big plans in the works.
- josefresco 4y ago
  Thanks for chiming in. Looks like it was my mistake in interpreting your product features. I'm going to attach them to household items but I'm still perplexed why each of my Tiles hasn't been "seen" in over a year yet I've ridden my ATV/snowmobile a handful of times during that period, all while having my phone in my pocket. Does the iOS app need to be open?
  - crhulls 4y ago
    No, it doesn't need to be open. If you send me a note at chris at life360.com I'll investigate why it isn't working. I'm curious myself and we only recently completed our acquisition of the company.

saberience 4y ago

AirTags or other “tracking devices” are not illegal. We don’t sue gun companies for selling legal weapons which are then used to illegally murder someone, do we? Do we sue knife companies when someone stabs someone using one of their knives? AirTags, like knives, are a useful tool that can also be used for purposes which are either illegal or borderline illegal. But we have so many tools which are like that, are we going to sue every company that sells something that could be used nefariously?

tyingq 4y ago
Presumably the case would focus on marketing claims of protection against this kind of use versus reality, or basic due diligence, etc. A gun company that claimed specific protective features that didn't work, or missed some obvious base safety features would probably get sued, yes. I don't know enough about the product to know if any of that has any merit, but I assume that's what the plaintiffs will try to prove.
- bombcar 4y ago
  There are many cases, such as: https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer-p320-pistol/42153865 https://www.wmur.com/article/lawsuit-new-hampshire-sig-sauer... In this cause the suit is that the gun is defective, it can fire without a trigger pull. The Apple suit is claiming negligence on the part of Apple because they did NOT do something "simple" to prevent tracking. It'll likely come down to whether that "simple" thing actually was, whether it was known, etc, etc. How a product is marketed can also come into play, which is why Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes.
  - tyingq 4y ago
    >Apple has been very careful (just like gun manufacturers) to never say or imply that it could be used for crimes They have talked about it: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-and-unwanted-tracking/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-a... Even on the main product page (https://www.apple.com/airtag/ https://www.apple.com/airtag/) ..."AirTag is designed to discourage unwanted tracking".

graywh 4y ago

any civilian could even leverage someone's own Apple device to track them