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> I am not a vegetarian and do not plan on becoming one - but I still want to avoid animal suffering wherever possible I don’t understand how these statements

> I am not a vegetarian and do not plan on becoming one - but I still want to avoid animal suffering wherever possible I don’t understand how these statements can possibly coexist unless you think that the animals you eat are slaughtered without suffering — a bar which is impossibly high, IMO.

hutzlibu 4y ago
Is this really so hard? "avoid animal suffering wherever possible" The slaughtering is not really the problem to me. Cannot be avoided, allright, I can live with that (but there are of course worlds between how the meat I like to eat was slaughtered, compared to the cheap meat from the supermarket, think a deer that died with a clean shot, compared to a animal waiting in stress and panic for hours or days before the slaughtering factory). And what matters more, are the living conditions the animal had before the slaughtering. Like being outside in the sun and on real grass, compared to tightly locked inside the whole life, literaly living in their own shit.
- paulcole 4y ago
  I mean you’re calling attention to the word you’re ignoring: “whenever.” You’re basically saying some suffering is fine as long as it’s suffering you’re fine with. Don’t get me wrong, that is a 100% valid attitude to have. But don’t pretend like you’re trying to avoid animal suffering whenever possible — because you’re clearly not. > The slaughtering is not really the problem to me Also lol at this. Makes it easy to avoid animal suffering if being slaughtered doesn’t count as suffering to you.
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    Suffering is part of the world. I just try to minimize it, I do not believe it can be avoided. Do you believe differently in general?
    - paulcole 4y ago
      I’ll agree that there’s no way to eliminate suffering. But you can continue to reduce your creation of suffering in animals by not eating meat. It’s fine if that’s a decision you’re not willing to make. But if you say, “I just try to minimize suffering” and then continue to eat meat, you should instead say, “I just try to minimize suffering that I can’t justify to myself.” Otherwise you’re lying to yourself because you’re doing one thing and saying another.
      - hutzlibu 4y ago
        "I just try to minimize suffering that I can’t justify to myself" That is clearly implied, isn't it? There is almost no action, that does not directly or indirectly creates (potential) suffering. Normal agriculture creates a lot of suffering by poisoning the earth and the animals within. But even the most ecological agriculture creates suffering. First, by making a forest to a field. Wild animals and plants had to go away, so that the corn can grow. But yes, growing corn in an ecological way minimizes suffering by comparing it with growing corn in the most toxic way and then feeding it to animals that can barely move, to then feed some fat humans, who can also barely move.
        paulcole 4y ago
        > That is clearly implied, isn't it? No.
simion314 4y ago
Not Op, but the same from me, I eat meet, I killed chickens at the farm this does not mean that I am fine for say you torturing a cat, beating a horse or killing animals for fun and not eat them. So the situation is not a 0 or 1 , you can do your medical experiment but follow the ethical rules and laws that you should.
- paulcole 4y ago
  So… then you disagree with avoiding animal suffering whenever possible. Or rather you’re fine with avoiding animal suffering whenever it doesn’t keep you from eating a chicken sandwich? I have no problem with that attitude. But let’s not delude ourselves. As (relatively) wealthy people in developed countries, we’re absolutely fine with people and animals suffering when it lets us have a hamburger or put an iPhone in our pockets.
  - simion314 4y ago
    Correct , I will not replace some good local meet and our 2000+ year traditions, for not a good enough reason. I killed animals to eat them and I am not bothered by the act, it had to be done. I was raised in a farm in Romania(Easter Europe, poor country ... so your typical american stereotypes will not apply = things were different like my old grandma asking me to kill a chicken (I was maybe 10 or 12). Andy FYI I am not rich nor using an iPhone or 1000$ phone.

hutzlibu 4y ago

Is this really so hard? "avoid animal suffering wherever possible" The slaughtering is not really the problem to me. Cannot be avoided, allright, I can live with that (but there are of course worlds between how the meat I like to eat was slaughtered, compared to the cheap meat from the supermarket, think a deer that died with a clean shot, compared to a animal waiting in stress and panic for hours or days before the slaughtering factory). And what matters more, are the living conditions the animal had before the slaughtering. Like being outside in the sun and on real grass, compared to tightly locked inside the whole life, literaly living in their own shit.

paulcole 4y ago
I mean you’re calling attention to the word you’re ignoring: “whenever.” You’re basically saying some suffering is fine as long as it’s suffering you’re fine with. Don’t get me wrong, that is a 100% valid attitude to have. But don’t pretend like you’re trying to avoid animal suffering whenever possible — because you’re clearly not. > The slaughtering is not really the problem to me Also lol at this. Makes it easy to avoid animal suffering if being slaughtered doesn’t count as suffering to you.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  Suffering is part of the world. I just try to minimize it, I do not believe it can be avoided. Do you believe differently in general?
  - paulcole 4y ago
    I’ll agree that there’s no way to eliminate suffering. But you can continue to reduce your creation of suffering in animals by not eating meat. It’s fine if that’s a decision you’re not willing to make. But if you say, “I just try to minimize suffering” and then continue to eat meat, you should instead say, “I just try to minimize suffering that I can’t justify to myself.” Otherwise you’re lying to yourself because you’re doing one thing and saying another.
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      "I just try to minimize suffering that I can’t justify to myself" That is clearly implied, isn't it? There is almost no action, that does not directly or indirectly creates (potential) suffering. Normal agriculture creates a lot of suffering by poisoning the earth and the animals within. But even the most ecological agriculture creates suffering. First, by making a forest to a field. Wild animals and plants had to go away, so that the corn can grow. But yes, growing corn in an ecological way minimizes suffering by comparing it with growing corn in the most toxic way and then feeding it to animals that can barely move, to then feed some fat humans, who can also barely move.
      - paulcole 4y ago
        > That is clearly implied, isn't it? No.

simion314 4y ago

Not Op, but the same from me, I eat meet, I killed chickens at the farm this does not mean that I am fine for say you torturing a cat, beating a horse or killing animals for fun and not eat them. So the situation is not a 0 or 1 , you can do your medical experiment but follow the ethical rules and laws that you should.

paulcole 4y ago
So… then you disagree with avoiding animal suffering whenever possible. Or rather you’re fine with avoiding animal suffering whenever it doesn’t keep you from eating a chicken sandwich? I have no problem with that attitude. But let’s not delude ourselves. As (relatively) wealthy people in developed countries, we’re absolutely fine with people and animals suffering when it lets us have a hamburger or put an iPhone in our pockets.
- simion314 4y ago
  Correct , I will not replace some good local meet and our 2000+ year traditions, for not a good enough reason. I killed animals to eat them and I am not bothered by the act, it had to be done. I was raised in a farm in Romania(Easter Europe, poor country ... so your typical american stereotypes will not apply = things were different like my old grandma asking me to kill a chicken (I was maybe 10 or 12). Andy FYI I am not rich nor using an iPhone or 1000$ phone.