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Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. The childless among us hear every complaint and lament about how terrible it is. Why would

Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. The childless among us hear every complaint and lament about how terrible it is. Why would we do that to ourselves?

vincnetas 4y ago
Did you hear from marathon runners how difficult it was? Same here, it's difficult but it brings experiences you could not have otherwise, and on pragmatic side passes on your genes ;)
- sambapa 4y ago
  The amount of one's genes after several generations is homeopathic, so it doesn't matter in the long run.
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    Yeah that whole evolution thing is clearly bunk. . . .
- tokai 4y ago
  Why yes marathon runners love to tell you how hard it was.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
I have 2 kids, I don’t recommend it. Quality of life decline is steep unless you’re wealthy and can hire robust childcare support, and it causes a significant decline in relationship satisfaction with your partner. Maybe you end up happy in the end, maybe you don’t, it’s Russian Roulette in a different form. People who tell you to go for it aren’t going to make you whole if it doesn’t work out or be your village when you need help. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00574.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/
- ricardobeat 4y ago
  This is extremely location-dependent. In countries where you have universal healthcare, free education and childcare benefits, the financial impact of having a child can be very low.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    What are the birth rates in these countries? If you check (Our World In Data Fertility Rates), you’ll see it’s lower than the US, even countries with strong pro natalist policies. The opportunity cost of kids is just too damn high. When fathers in Spain were given more parental leave, they have less kids, for example. The revealed preference is clear. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-UN https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-UN https://qz.com/work/1614893/after-men-in-spain-got-paternity-leave-they-wanted-fewer-kids/ https://qz.com/work/1614893/after-men-in-spain-got-paternity...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - ricardobeat 4y ago
      “As the authors point out, it’s impossible to draw sweeping conclusions from this observation of a single data point in a single country.” The study doesnt mention any effect on career progression or any other type of opportunity cost either. You’re entitled to your opinion but this article does not support it.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Those countries just offload the cost of the child onto other people. The cost is not low.
    - rendall 4y ago
      The cost to a society of not having children is also quite high, so pick your poison.
nkohari 4y ago
It's difficult to express to non-parents how good the good parts are. Speaking from personal experience, I never understood why people would want kids until we decided to have our own. This isn't a judgment or to say parents are in any way superior! Having children is a very personal choice which everyone has to confront, and there's no wrong answer. The feeling of being a parent is just incredibly difficult to put into words.
- thinkindie 4y ago
  I think you got the point right - it's easy to agree, almost objective, that sleepless nights are not good for you or crying babies or toddler with tantrums or chasing a toddler for the bed routing might not be the most funny thing to do after work is not the funniest activity in most of the cases, while the positive things are very subjective, less universal and more personal. That's why pointing out the "bad" things is easier, while reflecting on the positive side takes considerably longer than a random article on the web.
- martindbp 4y ago
  Yes, it's extremely obvious what the unpleasant things are, like a screaming toddler in the supermarket. But you can't explain the joy in simply watching some DuckTales with your kid and laughing together. I try to describe it like it's like when you're in love with a girl, the honey moon, except the honey moon never passes. Just like you can't stop looking at your crush you can't stop looking at your child, you find everything they do and learn extremely interesting. May not be the experience for everyone but if it were not like this it would be very difficult to get through the rough parts! The interesting thing is I care more about others kids as well now. Before kids I didn't have many interactions with them, not really a kids person, but now I feel more paternal for all kids. While there's an obvious confounding variable here, my friends with kids care about mine and want to meet them while those without pretend like they don't exist.
RHSeeger 4y ago
The people you hear most vocally for many things (for example, video games) are the ones that are listing the problems with it. They're also the ones that are doing it the most, by choice. As a general rule, it's common for the vocal minority to be the complainers; and also to be the ones that most enjoy the thing in question.
D13Fd 4y ago
> Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. What world do you live in? I have 4 (soon to be 5) kids myself and I’m happy with my choices. I know many families with kids, and only a small percentage seem unhappy, similar to most other life choices.
- naasking 4y ago
  > I know many families with kids, and only a small percentage seem unhappy, similar to most other life choices. "Seem" is the keyword. People successfully hide suicidal depression from close friends and family, so I'm not sure why you think people can't hide mild unhappiness.
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    If they "seem" happy, then they are not "consistently mak[ing] it clear how terrible having kids is."
    - naasking 4y ago
      You're talking about two different contexts: they can make happy while with friends and family where there are social expectations, and they can also report how they honestly feel in anonymous or confidential circumstances, like surveys, studies and therapy. The analogy I made to depression was intentional because it exhibits exactly this pattern: every depressed person consistently reports how terrible it is, and yet they often make a show of appearing happy in public.
      - D13Fd 4y ago
        I'm talking about the statement that "Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is." If they "seem" happy in all my interactions, I don't see how they can be "consistently mak[ing] clear how terrible having kids is." I also don't see how some secret only-tell-the-therapist-and-pollsters views could qualify as "consistently mak[ing] clear" their supposed negative feelings.
dsign 4y ago
This. And no, it's not just the baby stage. Just yesterday, in my team of five, three work colleagues were counseling each other about how go get help for their kids. The two children of one colleague suffer from anxiety and attention deficit, which is the same problem another colleague has. The third colleague needed to leave yesterday mid-afternoon because his daughter had a breakdown at school. Today he is taking her to therapy, and that's a regular occurrence. I've started to suspect that there is a silent pandemic of mental health issues between kids these days. Maybe it's the cell phones, maybe it's over-diagnosis, maybe it's because it's too much. Maybe the entire way we do families and child-rearing is broken. I remember feeling lonely and sad as a kid, then I went to boarding school and made some amazing friends and life was so much better and easier. Kids shouldn't grow alone.
rendall 4y ago
Real parent, here. Having a son anchored me to the (land and planet)* in a very unexpected way. Formerly, there was always an option to chuck things and go somewhere else, but now whatever is in front of me I must deal with and make happen. It's not about what I want to do any more, but the first underlying thought behind everything I do is how it will affect my son and family. Lots of former options are closed. I can no longer start a relationship with a fun and beautiful but legitimately insane woman. I can no longer splurge my life savings on some risky venture. I can no longer spontaneously digital nomad. Heck, I can't really hit the local pub or have a night out without negotiation. Is that terrible? I don't think so. It doesn't feel so. More, like, I do whatever I want within the bounds determined by my responsibility to someone who cannot care for himself yet. I have a fatherly and calm personality, though, and I know it's not suited for everyone. So, TL;DR: Not terrible. Anchoring. Limiting, but not oppressive. * There's no really good word for this.
- jld89 4y ago
  Hmmmm... not exactly an endorsement for parenting...
  - rendall 4y ago
    Wasn't trying to endorse it. In fact, I explicitly said it's not for everyone.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  I strongly identify with this post. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, there are lots of things I can't do now. But that's ok with me. It doesn't even feel like a sacrifice really. Being a dad is just part of who I am and I want to do it well just like any other thing I do. My kids won't need me anchored forever. And I still get to go fishing, see concerts, play video games, and do other stuff I enjoy. It's not the total loss of all freedom some make it out to be.
  - rendall 4y ago
    Agreed. Fun is to be had. Is essential, actually.
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
My wife had a friend who would watch us deal with our then toddler son and claim that we were the best birth control she could wish for :-)
- enigma20 4y ago
  I wish my sister had a child first. I would have never agreed to have one on my own :D
mbg721 4y ago
People complain about kids in a similar way to how they complain about their jobs. An unemployed observer might conclude that a career is inevitably hell on earth, but that wouldn't be the whole picture, even if everyone's work sucks some of the time and some people's work just sucks all the time.
shapefrog 4y ago
There are tons of "having a kid is great" in this thread. I have been present at many conversations in groups along these lines ... in multiple cases, the same people 1 on 1 tell me afterwards the exact opposite, what they have said in a group setting was an outright lie. Nobody wants to be the one who speaks out, everyone is saying its amazing because the others say it is amazing.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. The childless among us hear every complaint and lament about how terrible it is. Why would we do that to ourselves?

vincnetas 4y ago

Did you hear from marathon runners how difficult it was? Same here, it's difficult but it brings experiences you could not have otherwise, and on pragmatic side passes on your genes ;)

sambapa 4y ago
The amount of one's genes after several generations is homeopathic, so it doesn't matter in the long run.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  Yeah that whole evolution thing is clearly bunk. . . .
tokai 4y ago
Why yes marathon runners love to tell you how hard it was.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

I have 2 kids, I don’t recommend it. Quality of life decline is steep unless you’re wealthy and can hire robust childcare support, and it causes a significant decline in relationship satisfaction with your partner. Maybe you end up happy in the end, maybe you don’t, it’s Russian Roulette in a different form. People who tell you to go for it aren’t going to make you whole if it doesn’t work out or be your village when you need help. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00574.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/

ricardobeat 4y ago
This is extremely location-dependent. In countries where you have universal healthcare, free education and childcare benefits, the financial impact of having a child can be very low.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  What are the birth rates in these countries? If you check (Our World In Data Fertility Rates), you’ll see it’s lower than the US, even countries with strong pro natalist policies. The opportunity cost of kids is just too damn high. When fathers in Spain were given more parental leave, they have less kids, for example. The revealed preference is clear. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-UN https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-UN https://qz.com/work/1614893/after-men-in-spain-got-paternity-leave-they-wanted-fewer-kids/ https://qz.com/work/1614893/after-men-in-spain-got-paternity...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ricardobeat 4y ago
    “As the authors point out, it’s impossible to draw sweeping conclusions from this observation of a single data point in a single country.” The study doesnt mention any effect on career progression or any other type of opportunity cost either. You’re entitled to your opinion but this article does not support it.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Those countries just offload the cost of the child onto other people. The cost is not low.
  - rendall 4y ago
    The cost to a society of not having children is also quite high, so pick your poison.

nkohari 4y ago

It's difficult to express to non-parents how good the good parts are. Speaking from personal experience, I never understood why people would want kids until we decided to have our own. This isn't a judgment or to say parents are in any way superior! Having children is a very personal choice which everyone has to confront, and there's no wrong answer. The feeling of being a parent is just incredibly difficult to put into words.

thinkindie 4y ago
I think you got the point right - it's easy to agree, almost objective, that sleepless nights are not good for you or crying babies or toddler with tantrums or chasing a toddler for the bed routing might not be the most funny thing to do after work is not the funniest activity in most of the cases, while the positive things are very subjective, less universal and more personal. That's why pointing out the "bad" things is easier, while reflecting on the positive side takes considerably longer than a random article on the web.
martindbp 4y ago
Yes, it's extremely obvious what the unpleasant things are, like a screaming toddler in the supermarket. But you can't explain the joy in simply watching some DuckTales with your kid and laughing together. I try to describe it like it's like when you're in love with a girl, the honey moon, except the honey moon never passes. Just like you can't stop looking at your crush you can't stop looking at your child, you find everything they do and learn extremely interesting. May not be the experience for everyone but if it were not like this it would be very difficult to get through the rough parts! The interesting thing is I care more about others kids as well now. Before kids I didn't have many interactions with them, not really a kids person, but now I feel more paternal for all kids. While there's an obvious confounding variable here, my friends with kids care about mine and want to meet them while those without pretend like they don't exist.

RHSeeger 4y ago

The people you hear most vocally for many things (for example, video games) are the ones that are listing the problems with it. They're also the ones that are doing it the most, by choice. As a general rule, it's common for the vocal minority to be the complainers; and also to be the ones that most enjoy the thing in question.

D13Fd 4y ago

> Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. What world do you live in? I have 4 (soon to be 5) kids myself and I’m happy with my choices. I know many families with kids, and only a small percentage seem unhappy, similar to most other life choices.

naasking 4y ago
> I know many families with kids, and only a small percentage seem unhappy, similar to most other life choices. "Seem" is the keyword. People successfully hide suicidal depression from close friends and family, so I'm not sure why you think people can't hide mild unhappiness.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  If they "seem" happy, then they are not "consistently mak[ing] it clear how terrible having kids is."
  - naasking 4y ago
    You're talking about two different contexts: they can make happy while with friends and family where there are social expectations, and they can also report how they honestly feel in anonymous or confidential circumstances, like surveys, studies and therapy. The analogy I made to depression was intentional because it exhibits exactly this pattern: every depressed person consistently reports how terrible it is, and yet they often make a show of appearing happy in public.
    - D13Fd 4y ago
      I'm talking about the statement that "Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is." If they "seem" happy in all my interactions, I don't see how they can be "consistently mak[ing] clear how terrible having kids is." I also don't see how some secret only-tell-the-therapist-and-pollsters views could qualify as "consistently mak[ing] clear" their supposed negative feelings.

dsign 4y ago

This. And no, it's not just the baby stage. Just yesterday, in my team of five, three work colleagues were counseling each other about how go get help for their kids. The two children of one colleague suffer from anxiety and attention deficit, which is the same problem another colleague has. The third colleague needed to leave yesterday mid-afternoon because his daughter had a breakdown at school. Today he is taking her to therapy, and that's a regular occurrence. I've started to suspect that there is a silent pandemic of mental health issues between kids these days. Maybe it's the cell phones, maybe it's over-diagnosis, maybe it's because it's too much. Maybe the entire way we do families and child-rearing is broken. I remember feeling lonely and sad as a kid, then I went to boarding school and made some amazing friends and life was so much better and easier. Kids shouldn't grow alone.

rendall 4y ago

Real parent, here. Having a son anchored me to the (land and planet)* in a very unexpected way. Formerly, there was always an option to chuck things and go somewhere else, but now whatever is in front of me I must deal with and make happen. It's not about what I want to do any more, but the first underlying thought behind everything I do is how it will affect my son and family. Lots of former options are closed. I can no longer start a relationship with a fun and beautiful but legitimately insane woman. I can no longer splurge my life savings on some risky venture. I can no longer spontaneously digital nomad. Heck, I can't really hit the local pub or have a night out without negotiation. Is that terrible? I don't think so. It doesn't feel so. More, like, I do whatever I want within the bounds determined by my responsibility to someone who cannot care for himself yet. I have a fatherly and calm personality, though, and I know it's not suited for everyone. So, TL;DR: Not terrible. Anchoring. Limiting, but not oppressive. * There's no really good word for this.

jld89 4y ago
Hmmmm... not exactly an endorsement for parenting...
- rendall 4y ago
  Wasn't trying to endorse it. In fact, I explicitly said it's not for everyone.
agentwiggles 4y ago
I strongly identify with this post. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, there are lots of things I can't do now. But that's ok with me. It doesn't even feel like a sacrifice really. Being a dad is just part of who I am and I want to do it well just like any other thing I do. My kids won't need me anchored forever. And I still get to go fishing, see concerts, play video games, and do other stuff I enjoy. It's not the total loss of all freedom some make it out to be.
- rendall 4y ago
  Agreed. Fun is to be had. Is essential, actually.

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago

My wife had a friend who would watch us deal with our then toddler son and claim that we were the best birth control she could wish for :-)

enigma20 4y ago
I wish my sister had a child first. I would have never agreed to have one on my own :D

mbg721 4y ago

People complain about kids in a similar way to how they complain about their jobs. An unemployed observer might conclude that a career is inevitably hell on earth, but that wouldn't be the whole picture, even if everyone's work sucks some of the time and some people's work just sucks all the time.

shapefrog 4y ago

There are tons of "having a kid is great" in this thread. I have been present at many conversations in groups along these lines ... in multiple cases, the same people 1 on 1 tell me afterwards the exact opposite, what they have said in a group setting was an outright lie. Nobody wants to be the one who speaks out, everyone is saying its amazing because the others say it is amazing.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]