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I strongly disagree. Here's a family home with garden in the Berlin area that you can rent-to-own at 1900€ per month: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/13

I strongly disagree. Here's a family home with garden in the Berlin area that you can rent-to-own at 1900€ per month: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/135035667 https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/135035667 So with a 100k€ annual salary, one working parent alone can buy the house and feed the entire family. You consider that an "insult"?

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
We are talking about someone with 15 years experience though. 100k @ 15 years is too low when new grads now start at 60k. So you hire someone who has 14 years of extra experience and brings a lot more value to the company and only pay them 40k extra? That's why I'm saying it feels like an insult.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  15 years of experience might also mean they are excellent at PHP+jQuery but have never heard of Rails+React ;)
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Sure, we are getting into semantics now. 15 years experience could mean knowing how to lead and bring up a team and product form scratch or it could also mean 15x 1 year experience if that person was constantly switching stacks/companies. It's why we should compare salaries for positions rather than YoE.
  - throwaway908365 4y ago
    > 15 years of experience might also mean they are excellent at PHP+jQuery but have never heard of Rails+React ;) Not in this case. It is 15 years of proper software engineering and devops experience, for times in leading positions with additional responsibilities.
f1shy 4y ago
The problem is, when you retire, you cannot pay the rent for the house anymore... what do you do then? The cost published does not include heating or any other utilities, that adds up pretty quick!
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  It's rent-to-own so if you start early enough, you'll own the house by the time you retire. And yes, heating and utilities add up. But we're talking about a salary that after taxes will be 3x to 4x the down payments.
single_identity 4y ago
First, 100k EUR is _before_ tax which I believe you might be confusing here. After tax you get maybe 50-ish % of that so you end up with something like 50k EUR per year. In no European country that would be enough to "buy the house" and even more so in Germany. Secondly, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts here. What if you: * Lived in the EU * Being salaried 100k EUR (which is probably around 90th percentile) * Worked for a _global_ company with a _global_ product deployed on a _global_ market with _global_ competition And now some of your colleagues are from the US and you: * have the same responsibilities as they do * have the same skill-set needed for given position as they do * have the same impact, or potential for it thereof, as they do * have to go through the same agony of being and staying among top performers And yet your US colleagues are salaried 2x-3x as much as you are. Without taking RSUs into a picture because that's a very rare thing to have in European companies. What are your thoughts about this? Do you attribute this difference solely to the cost of living?
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  The offer I linked to was literally a "buy the house with monthly installments and no upfront payment" offer. So yes, you can "buy the house" if you can afford those 1900€ per month in addition to food and heating. Also, with 2 kids and 2 adults out of which only 1 is working, you'll get heavy tax deductions, so I'd expect an effective tax rate of around 15%. That 100k€ gross will turn into 85k€ after taxes. Deduct another 10k€ annually for top-tier health insurance for everyone, 1900€ per month = 23k€ annually for the house and that leaves you with about 4300€ each month to spend on food, clothing and heating. This might be just me, but I think if you pay people so that they can have a very nice lifestyle where they live, that's a "good salary". If the absolute $ number is higher in San Francisco than it is in Germany, then you either need to pay them more to match the lifestyle, or maybe hire in cheaper markets. Germany in general seems to be very remote friendly. Many larger companies even have programs where you can go on a work-vacation to a tourist resort and they'll organize a co-working space and necessary permits. I guess that's why you see salaries equalize more throughout Germany while in the US the regional differences are quite strong.
  - single_identity 4y ago
haspok 4y ago
I don't think that is how it works. In the ad the Kaltmiete is €1900, which is simply the rent without utilities. It does not mean that a. you are eligible to buy that property b. the buy-to-rent price will be the same. And even if it was, the legal costs alone add up to a few tens of thousands of EUR for a property like this (eg. if the property is worth €500k, you are looking at at least in the order of €50k of legal costs and taxes...). But I don't know of any bank that would lend you 100% of the price of the property you want to buy, if you do please introduce me to them... If it really was so easy, everyone would be buying these properties. But the upfront costs are simply prohibitive.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  Then let's go with buying this more fancy house for no upfront down payment, then 3k€ monthly, and paid off over 30 years: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/baufinanzierung/finanzierungsrechner/?exposeId=137740478&cmp_name=finance_calculator&cmp_id=10-04099&cmp_position=residential_expose&cmp_creative=mortage_cost_widget&forceOldCalc=true https://www.immobilienscout24.de/baufinanzierung/finanzierun... "But I don't know of any bank that would lend you 100% of the price of the property you want to buy, if you do please introduce me to them..." Here's a FAQ on buying a house without any prior capital. Obviously, the interest rate is going to be higher... https://www.immobilienscout24.de/wissen/kaufen/finanzierung-ohne-eigenkapital.html https://www.immobilienscout24.de/wissen/kaufen/finanzierung-...
- lnsru 4y ago
  Every lender (Wüstenrot, Interhyp and Sparkasse) were ok with 100% lending as long as I was able to bring in my own 10% for legal/buying procedure. Of course it was during cheap money phase. Now it might be different. I also wouldn’t buy a house from last century anymore with current insane gas and electricity prices. And this makes things complicated since new buildings are very rare.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

We are talking about someone with 15 years experience though. 100k @ 15 years is too low when new grads now start at 60k. So you hire someone who has 14 years of extra experience and brings a lot more value to the company and only pay them 40k extra? That's why I'm saying it feels like an insult.

fxtentacle 4y ago
15 years of experience might also mean they are excellent at PHP+jQuery but have never heard of Rails+React ;)
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Sure, we are getting into semantics now. 15 years experience could mean knowing how to lead and bring up a team and product form scratch or it could also mean 15x 1 year experience if that person was constantly switching stacks/companies. It's why we should compare salaries for positions rather than YoE.
- throwaway908365 4y ago
  > 15 years of experience might also mean they are excellent at PHP+jQuery but have never heard of Rails+React ;) Not in this case. It is 15 years of proper software engineering and devops experience, for times in leading positions with additional responsibilities.

f1shy 4y ago

The problem is, when you retire, you cannot pay the rent for the house anymore... what do you do then? The cost published does not include heating or any other utilities, that adds up pretty quick!

fxtentacle 4y ago
It's rent-to-own so if you start early enough, you'll own the house by the time you retire. And yes, heating and utilities add up. But we're talking about a salary that after taxes will be 3x to 4x the down payments.

single_identity 4y ago

First, 100k EUR is _before_ tax which I believe you might be confusing here. After tax you get maybe 50-ish % of that so you end up with something like 50k EUR per year. In no European country that would be enough to "buy the house" and even more so in Germany. Secondly, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts here. What if you: * Lived in the EU * Being salaried 100k EUR (which is probably around 90th percentile) * Worked for a _global_ company with a _global_ product deployed on a _global_ market with _global_ competition And now some of your colleagues are from the US and you: * have the same responsibilities as they do * have the same skill-set needed for given position as they do * have the same impact, or potential for it thereof, as they do * have to go through the same agony of being and staying among top performers And yet your US colleagues are salaried 2x-3x as much as you are. Without taking RSUs into a picture because that's a very rare thing to have in European companies. What are your thoughts about this? Do you attribute this difference solely to the cost of living?

fxtentacle 4y ago
The offer I linked to was literally a "buy the house with monthly installments and no upfront payment" offer. So yes, you can "buy the house" if you can afford those 1900€ per month in addition to food and heating. Also, with 2 kids and 2 adults out of which only 1 is working, you'll get heavy tax deductions, so I'd expect an effective tax rate of around 15%. That 100k€ gross will turn into 85k€ after taxes. Deduct another 10k€ annually for top-tier health insurance for everyone, 1900€ per month = 23k€ annually for the house and that leaves you with about 4300€ each month to spend on food, clothing and heating. This might be just me, but I think if you pay people so that they can have a very nice lifestyle where they live, that's a "good salary". If the absolute $ number is higher in San Francisco than it is in Germany, then you either need to pay them more to match the lifestyle, or maybe hire in cheaper markets. Germany in general seems to be very remote friendly. Many larger companies even have programs where you can go on a work-vacation to a tourist resort and they'll organize a co-working space and necessary permits. I guess that's why you see salaries equalize more throughout Germany while in the US the regional differences are quite strong.
- single_identity 4y ago

haspok 4y ago

I don't think that is how it works. In the ad the Kaltmiete is €1900, which is simply the rent without utilities. It does not mean that a. you are eligible to buy that property b. the buy-to-rent price will be the same. And even if it was, the legal costs alone add up to a few tens of thousands of EUR for a property like this (eg. if the property is worth €500k, you are looking at at least in the order of €50k of legal costs and taxes...). But I don't know of any bank that would lend you 100% of the price of the property you want to buy, if you do please introduce me to them... If it really was so easy, everyone would be buying these properties. But the upfront costs are simply prohibitive.

fxtentacle 4y ago
Then let's go with buying this more fancy house for no upfront down payment, then 3k€ monthly, and paid off over 30 years: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/baufinanzierung/finanzierungsrechner/?exposeId=137740478&cmp_name=finance_calculator&cmp_id=10-04099&cmp_position=residential_expose&cmp_creative=mortage_cost_widget&forceOldCalc=true https://www.immobilienscout24.de/baufinanzierung/finanzierun... "But I don't know of any bank that would lend you 100% of the price of the property you want to buy, if you do please introduce me to them..." Here's a FAQ on buying a house without any prior capital. Obviously, the interest rate is going to be higher... https://www.immobilienscout24.de/wissen/kaufen/finanzierung-ohne-eigenkapital.html https://www.immobilienscout24.de/wissen/kaufen/finanzierung-...
lnsru 4y ago
Every lender (Wüstenrot, Interhyp and Sparkasse) were ok with 100% lending as long as I was able to bring in my own 10% for legal/buying procedure. Of course it was during cheap money phase. Now it might be different. I also wouldn’t buy a house from last century anymore with current insane gas and electricity prices. And this makes things complicated since new buildings are very rare.