4 ms·

100k€ for 15 years of experience seems about right for me. If you factor in all the freebies and tax refunds and stuff, that's roughly equivalent to earning 100

100k€ for 15 years of experience seems about right for me. If you factor in all the freebies and tax refunds and stuff, that's roughly equivalent to earning 1000€ per billable day as a German freelancer, or the equivalent of about $150 per hour in the US. Typical freebies in Germany include: - 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary) - only half of your health insurance costs are included in the nominal salary - tax refunds if you buy a PC, do courses, or drive to work with your car - company pays for children's daycare - government-backed retirement fund with generous payouts. If you pay in 83€ per month now you can expect to receive at least €450 per month later. Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living.

throwaway908365 4y ago
> - 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary) My 100k number is all-in. > Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living. That is true. But you have to say goodbye to any romantic dreams about owning any property big enough for children (within a nice area of such a city), if you and a similiarly well-doing partner do not want to work for it for the rest of your life. If you have not come across FIRE, that might be okay as well.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  Yes of course. A 100k€ annual salary won't let you retire early if you are the only one working in your family and you want to buy a nice house in a nice area of the city. But then again, would that work out if you were to work in San Francisco for $200k annually?
  - throwaway908365 4y ago
    Think about it this way: I am in the top earning 2%. It is only possible to buy such a home if you have a partner, who makes similiar numbers and then together decide to dedicate your life to it. The 98% of the rest cannot do it. Ergo I am either not earning enough or we have to accept, that you cannot really buy property within a top-tier city in Germany. In the end the whole debate turns into young vs. old and heritage vs. salary.
    - fxtentacle 4y ago
      But would the situation be better in the US where you might get 2x the salary but rent and housing prices are also 2x the German level?
      - ddorian43 4y ago
        US is generally cheaper to buy a house based on income. Too lazy to google the graph.
f1shy 4y ago
Wait! the Christmas/Vacation "extras" are already factored in the 100k. The tax refunds may seem a big thing, but are actually not that much. Company not always pay for children daycare. You have to make sure it is, and even when they would pay, sometimes you just do not find a place that accept the kid, because there is lack of places in many cities. About the retirement... I would be careful about big expectations. Everything is based in constant growth of the german economy. Any public retirement is basically a Ponzi scheme (not my words! but from a Nobel Economy laureate) Also one very important thing about cost of living: Hamburg and Munich, for example, the cost of living means that doing 20k more per year, as compared with say, Stuttgart, at the end you get the same... or the way around, 100k in Stuttgart is like 120k in Munich. You really have to factor that into the equation.
lnsru 4y ago
13th salary?.. It’s actually Austrian thing being taxed less in Austria. Never had this in my dozen jobs in Germany. Xmas bonus yes. Health insurance is expensive and low quality. One must pay for all modern treatments despite being insured. Or have another expensive additional insurance. Cancer will be treated for free, that’s right. Tax refund is a bad joke. Spending 5000€ to get cents back. 50% taxes and mandatory insurance plus 19% value added tax (food less, fuel with additional taxes). So 2/3 earned go to the government. Nice! No company from dozen paid for childcare. I know, that it might happen, but it’s rare. Some companies have on-site kindergartens. But well… the waitlist is long unless you are important manager. Government retirement will be about enough to live in extreme poverty trying to save every cent. Just got intrigued and opened immobilienscout24. No houses for 2000€ in Hamburg and Berlin for a family of 5. Rather old Reihenmittelhaus for 2500€ with current electricity and heating prices. There is nothing comfortable about 100k€ annually. Especially for a family of five. It’s like 4500€ after taxes every month paying 2500€ rent and living from 2000€. Belarus freelancers also make this and have really comfy lifestyles. Edit: with 3 kids it’s closer to 5000€ after taxes. Still does not provide any luxury.
whiddershins 4y ago
The only thing on here that is in any way better than what I get in the U.S. would be the free daycare. Everything else is worse than what I earn as a fully remote employee, who could choose to live in any number of second or third tier American cities that are nearly as cheap as Berlin.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  (and probably the healthcare system that doesn't bankrupt you)
  - nsxwolf 4y ago
    It's pretty hard for a software engineer to get bankrupted by the US healthcare system. As long as you maintain your insurance coverage, your biggest worry is the annual "out of pocket maximum", which is the most you can pay in a year, and is usually very low end of 5 digits. There are gotchas with this with uncovered services (i.e., rescue helicopters) but in general, this whole bankruptcy concept is overblown, especially in our privileged market segment.
    - fxtentacle 4y ago
      "maintain your insurance coverage" sounds like a pretty difficult thing to do for a hypothetical software engineer who just got fired because of burnout.
      - nsxwolf 4y ago
        In this industry severance is common, which often includes some amount of continuation of coverage. You are then usually eligible for COBRA, a law that lets you continue your current policy for 18 months self-funded (often expensive). You have 60 days to elect COBRA, so if you find another job or gain other coverage before needing care you can sometimes avoid paying for it. You can get your own coverage on the Affordable Care Act exchanges. It's not necessarily a great deal, but again, it's about keeping that out of pocket limit as a safety net. In all likelihood the burned out hypothetical software engineer is going to recover and find work with employer funded healthcare coverage again.

throwaway908365 4y ago

> - 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary) My 100k number is all-in. > Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living. That is true. But you have to say goodbye to any romantic dreams about owning any property big enough for children (within a nice area of such a city), if you and a similiarly well-doing partner do not want to work for it for the rest of your life. If you have not come across FIRE, that might be okay as well.

fxtentacle 4y ago
Yes of course. A 100k€ annual salary won't let you retire early if you are the only one working in your family and you want to buy a nice house in a nice area of the city. But then again, would that work out if you were to work in San Francisco for $200k annually?
- throwaway908365 4y ago
  Think about it this way: I am in the top earning 2%. It is only possible to buy such a home if you have a partner, who makes similiar numbers and then together decide to dedicate your life to it. The 98% of the rest cannot do it. Ergo I am either not earning enough or we have to accept, that you cannot really buy property within a top-tier city in Germany. In the end the whole debate turns into young vs. old and heritage vs. salary.
  - fxtentacle 4y ago
    But would the situation be better in the US where you might get 2x the salary but rent and housing prices are also 2x the German level?
    - ddorian43 4y ago
      US is generally cheaper to buy a house based on income. Too lazy to google the graph.

f1shy 4y ago

Wait! the Christmas/Vacation "extras" are already factored in the 100k. The tax refunds may seem a big thing, but are actually not that much. Company not always pay for children daycare. You have to make sure it is, and even when they would pay, sometimes you just do not find a place that accept the kid, because there is lack of places in many cities. About the retirement... I would be careful about big expectations. Everything is based in constant growth of the german economy. Any public retirement is basically a Ponzi scheme (not my words! but from a Nobel Economy laureate) Also one very important thing about cost of living: Hamburg and Munich, for example, the cost of living means that doing 20k more per year, as compared with say, Stuttgart, at the end you get the same... or the way around, 100k in Stuttgart is like 120k in Munich. You really have to factor that into the equation.

lnsru 4y ago

13th salary?.. It’s actually Austrian thing being taxed less in Austria. Never had this in my dozen jobs in Germany. Xmas bonus yes. Health insurance is expensive and low quality. One must pay for all modern treatments despite being insured. Or have another expensive additional insurance. Cancer will be treated for free, that’s right. Tax refund is a bad joke. Spending 5000€ to get cents back. 50% taxes and mandatory insurance plus 19% value added tax (food less, fuel with additional taxes). So 2/3 earned go to the government. Nice! No company from dozen paid for childcare. I know, that it might happen, but it’s rare. Some companies have on-site kindergartens. But well… the waitlist is long unless you are important manager. Government retirement will be about enough to live in extreme poverty trying to save every cent. Just got intrigued and opened immobilienscout24. No houses for 2000€ in Hamburg and Berlin for a family of 5. Rather old Reihenmittelhaus for 2500€ with current electricity and heating prices. There is nothing comfortable about 100k€ annually. Especially for a family of five. It’s like 4500€ after taxes every month paying 2500€ rent and living from 2000€. Belarus freelancers also make this and have really comfy lifestyles. Edit: with 3 kids it’s closer to 5000€ after taxes. Still does not provide any luxury.

whiddershins 4y ago

The only thing on here that is in any way better than what I get in the U.S. would be the free daycare. Everything else is worse than what I earn as a fully remote employee, who could choose to live in any number of second or third tier American cities that are nearly as cheap as Berlin.

fxtentacle 4y ago
(and probably the healthcare system that doesn't bankrupt you)
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  It's pretty hard for a software engineer to get bankrupted by the US healthcare system. As long as you maintain your insurance coverage, your biggest worry is the annual "out of pocket maximum", which is the most you can pay in a year, and is usually very low end of 5 digits. There are gotchas with this with uncovered services (i.e., rescue helicopters) but in general, this whole bankruptcy concept is overblown, especially in our privileged market segment.
  - fxtentacle 4y ago
    "maintain your insurance coverage" sounds like a pretty difficult thing to do for a hypothetical software engineer who just got fired because of burnout.
    - nsxwolf 4y ago
      In this industry severance is common, which often includes some amount of continuation of coverage. You are then usually eligible for COBRA, a law that lets you continue your current policy for 18 months self-funded (often expensive). You have 60 days to elect COBRA, so if you find another job or gain other coverage before needing care you can sometimes avoid paying for it. You can get your own coverage on the Affordable Care Act exchanges. It's not necessarily a great deal, but again, it's about keeping that out of pocket limit as a safety net. In all likelihood the burned out hypothetical software engineer is going to recover and find work with employer funded healthcare coverage again.