8 ms·

Have not been laid off and I am not living in the bay area, but in Germany. Still wanted to offer some perspective. ~15 years fullstack and DevOps experience,

Have not been laid off and I am not living in the bay area, but in Germany. Still wanted to offer some perspective. ~15 years fullstack and DevOps experience, visited top local university, no degree. Mostly Python + some other languages. Have been interviewing for Lead SE/DevOps/SRE roles as well as some architecture positions. My findings about the German job market for developers: - Remote-work is here to stay. Almost all companies are okay with full-remote, those who are not, want ~2 days in the office per week. - Companies are starting to do leetcode-style interviews. Sometimes some FizzBuzz level to check basic understanding, going up to harder problems unrelated to the position. Unless they are very hard, you will just get used to that. - Remote or hybrid meetings with multiple participants are horrible for interviewing. The delay makes you come across slow and is very distracting, when you need to look sharp. - If you want to earn money in Germany, you have to join a bigger company. - Bigger companies do their development in Java with a minority being MS shops. Python is for data science and DevOps. - The missing degree is mostly not a problem. Sometimes the CTO's PHD makes it one. - Landing lead/lower management roles seems to be difficult if you have limited experience leading people. Those seem to be mostly staffed internally. - The market value for a profile like mine in a big German city seems to be around 100k € including some small bonus. - There are many offers under that number. I think I would get hired almost instantly if I would accept offers for 80k €. - All-in all IT does not seem affected by the downturn yet. While these numbers are not directly comparable to the US (lower cost of living, better social security, health-insurance included and not tied to your job etc.) my subjective feeling is, that I am getting taken advantage of here. Salaries seem to be too low. You are often getting low-balled because "it would not fit within the salaries of the other team members". For the time being, freelancing is the way to go in Germany, even though you are fighting against regulations.

kybernetyk 4y ago
Is this 100k gross or net pay?
- orthoxerox 4y ago
  100% gross
- manmal 4y ago
  Gross. Net depends on various factors (kids, spouse etc) so isn’t usually used for comparison. Personally I‘m living in Austria, where things are quite similar - I‘d say 100k gross should work out to 55k net for a freelancer. That’s after having paid for a deductible company car and hardware etc, so, again, hard to compare to others.
- throwaway908365 4y ago
  It is gross, but very hard to compare, because it does not include your employer having to pay halfes on social securities. Actual gross would be something like 120k, but with obligatory expenses, you cannot opt out of. Net would be something like 55k if you are single, but you already paid into a mandatory retirement plan and you, your kids (and laughably also your partner) are health insured.
- f1shy 4y ago
  Gross... and about the 1/2 goes away. Like 45%. Also depending on where you come from, you can be shock by the 19% VAT on almost everything. While food is cheap, some other things are more expensive (tech stuff). The gov. has good health service, and also education. But the education system has some interesting limitations, that may surprise you.
  - fxtentacle 4y ago
    FYI you only pay 45% on the income that exceeds 277826€ annually. A typical rate for 100k€ income for a family of 4 would be 15%.
    - single_identity 4y ago
      I'll say again. Please stop spreading this nonsense information around the thread. Either you're very much misinformed or motivated by something else. Just stop.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>salaries seem to be too low. You are often getting low-balled because "it would not fit within the salaries of the other team members". Preach it! CoL in German cities is far too high for how low skilled dev wages are. 100k at 15 years work experience is an insult when you look at Munich/Berlin house prices and that new grads can get 60k. And DW posted a YouTube video yesterday about how Germany has a shortage of software developers and they need to actively recruit from India and Pakistan. [1] More like a shortage of desperate people willing to be low balled and a shortage of companies paying good wages. Companies in Germany need to start paying ICs more and stop complaining about shortage of workers. Simple. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Mch8xDCZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Mch8xDCZU
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  I strongly disagree. Here's a family home with garden in the Berlin area that you can rent-to-own at 1900€ per month: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/135035667 https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/135035667 So with a 100k€ annual salary, one working parent alone can buy the house and feed the entire family. You consider that an "insult"?
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    We are talking about someone with 15 years experience though. 100k @ 15 years is too low when new grads now start at 60k. So you hire someone who has 14 years of extra experience and brings a lot more value to the company and only pay them 40k extra? That's why I'm saying it feels like an insult.
    - fxtentacle 4y ago
      15 years of experience might also mean they are excellent at PHP+jQuery but have never heard of Rails+React ;)
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        Sure, we are getting into semantics now. 15 years experience could mean knowing how to lead and bring up a team and product form scratch or it could also mean 15x 1 year experience if that person was constantly switching stacks/companies. It's why we should compare salaries for positions rather than YoE.
fxtentacle 4y ago
100k€ for 15 years of experience seems about right for me. If you factor in all the freebies and tax refunds and stuff, that's roughly equivalent to earning 1000€ per billable day as a German freelancer, or the equivalent of about $150 per hour in the US. Typical freebies in Germany include: - 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary) - only half of your health insurance costs are included in the nominal salary - tax refunds if you buy a PC, do courses, or drive to work with your car - company pays for children's daycare - government-backed retirement fund with generous payouts. If you pay in 83€ per month now you can expect to receive at least €450 per month later. Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living.
- throwaway908365 4y ago
  > - 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary) My 100k number is all-in. > Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living. That is true. But you have to say goodbye to any romantic dreams about owning any property big enough for children (within a nice area of such a city), if you and a similiarly well-doing partner do not want to work for it for the rest of your life. If you have not come across FIRE, that might be okay as well.
  - fxtentacle 4y ago
    Yes of course. A 100k€ annual salary won't let you retire early if you are the only one working in your family and you want to buy a nice house in a nice area of the city. But then again, would that work out if you were to work in San Francisco for $200k annually?
    - throwaway908365 4y ago
mkl95 4y ago
> Landing lead/lower management roles seems to be difficult if you have limited experience leading people. Those seem to be mostly staffed internally. Because at most places lead/lower management is another word for yes men that have proven their blind loyalty to the CTO, usually for 2 or 3 years. They don't wanna hire a manager who may question the status quo, especially when it comes to architecture and best practices. > The market value for a profile like mine in a big German city seems to be around 100k € including some small bonus. That sounds low to me and attainable in Europe if you have 5+ YoE at the right places. It sounds to me like you are being lowballed. I'm getting similar offers with way less experience.
- f1shy 4y ago
  Specially in Germany middle management is all about contacts (they call it "B-Vitamin" because of the german word for "relationship" starts with "B") who do you know and who knows you is the most important thing... Technical background is relegated to a second plane (to say the least) because you are "not supposed to solve the problems, but to manage the people who actually solve the problems".
- donkeyd 4y ago
  > That sounds low to me and attainable in Europe if you have 5+ YoE at the right places. It sounds to me like you are being lowballed. I'm getting similar offers with way less experience. Where you at? In the Netherlands getting anything over €70k is incredibly hard. There are very few companies offering close to that and those are often for architecture roles. Lead dev is usually €60-70k, with some €70-80k exceptions, but those usually require ~10 years focused experience. Interestingly, over here the freelance market is much better. Those will easily get you €100-150k gross and are often quite long term. And even with €100k, combined with all the tax benefits it's very much worth it.
  - mkl95 4y ago
    My country is lower income than the Netherlands and Germany. 70k is upper management money here and a bit more than what I make. I have talked to some companies in Ireland and the UK in the last few months, and their ranges usually start at 80/90k. The most famous example is probably Google. Entry level (L3) is 100k-ish and L4 starts at ~120k. Even if OP was placed at a below average level for someone with 15 YoE, they should be getting 150k+ offers.
mrcartmeneses 4y ago
Do you have any advice for freelancing in Germany? I’ll be moving to Berlin in January, aber ich spreche nur Englisch und ich lerne Deutsch. Ich habe die EU-Staatsbürgerschaft und meine Frau kommt aus Berlin. I am a senior front end dev who has experience leading teams
- f1shy 4y ago
  Why do you want freelance? You can apply to any job... AFAIK the headaches of tax declaration and setup for freelance are not worth it.
  - mrcartmeneses 4y ago
    I just hate being “employed”. All of the politics and incompetence in other people’s businesses reminds me too much of the Russian communist party. Every large capitalist company ends up like a low-stakes episode of the Netflix series Chernobyl. Perhaps I’m just grumpy but that’s who I am. I’d much rather just code some stuff and get out before I start having to “assassinate” my managers. If I could find a place that allowed workers to vote out managers then maybe I’d be happy, but until then I’ll just come and go. Like politicians, managers are only as good as your ability to fire them. You’ll love my code, your customers will be happy. Let me go before I make you cry.
- jagermo 4y ago
  former freelancer here (writing, not coding), but I would not do it again, the stress around taxes, insurance etc alone is not worth it (at least for me). Plus, you probably won't be leading teams but be more of a workbench. However, if you don't want to be tied down, something like "Elternzeitvertretung" (aka jumping in for people on paternity/maternity leave) might be interesting for you.
- throwaway908365 4y ago
  Welcome :). Berlin in January is tough, even for German standards. 1. Just get a tax advisor who is fine speaking English with you. Just let him do everything in the beginning. Afterwards you can do more of that yourself. Try to be classified as Freiberuflich, not Gewerbetreibender. It helps if you have an engineering degree, but he can help you with that. 2. Do at least two gigs per year (Scheinselbstständigkeit). 3. Use HAYS and others to start it of. 4. Continue to learn German. Maybe do some German interview training or something to get in. There are teams working in English, but you will have an easier time overall.
nemo44x 4y ago
You’re being ripped off. I’m paying guys in various parts of Europe well more than this with probably less experience. European software developers are grossly underpaid across the board but 100k is very low. I’m paying around 120-130k in Amsterdam which has a similar CoL to Berlin.
- teux 4y ago
  Can I ask if you know how average costs in Scandinavia hold up to that? Working in Norway atm making ~90k€ equivalent after some time, but I took the paycut from the US because of quality of life/healthcare/state pension, etc. Still, it’s a very good salary here, I’m in the top few % of all Norwegians. But it was a huge paycut. I’m definitely happier than I was in the US but I have been considering moving a bit further south. Bumping up to 120k and getting more sunshine would be very nice.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    I’m not sure about Norway but Sweden/Stockholm is in the same class as Berlin, Amsterdam, etc. I feel like Norway would be higher but I’m not certain. Premium areas are London and Paris. But even these salaries are closer to a middle rate USA city. Super-premium (on par with more expensive USA salaries like SF or NYC) is Switzerland. Very expensive to hire there and easily the highest salaries in Europe in my experience. This is just based on a CoL ratings at a single place.
    - mrfumier 4y ago
      Paris ? Like, how much ? When looking at offers there, there is absolutly nothing beyond 70k.
  - sandos 4y ago
    I think Sweden might be worse in all of Europe though. 90k€ is unheard of here for developers, unless you are managing a team or a middle manager or something. Well ok, maybe its a thing in Stockholm actually. Living in a slightly smaller city, now way Jose. I am applying currently, don't know how that will turn out, but he manager even said that Swedish developers are cheaper for the company than people from Germany, Switzerland and I think even Poland was getting bigger wages. So Sweden has this low-wage aura apparently.
j33zusjuice 4y ago
Not to mention the 42% paid in taxes every year, assuming the €100k is gross, not net. €58,000 seems like a low take-home, even with all the caveats you gave.
- throwaway908365 4y ago
  This is not how taxes work. 42% is the marginal rate, not the effective rate.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  The actual tax rate with 2 kids and 2 adults out of which only 1 works and earns €100k is going to be 18% if you don't declare ANY deductions.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
>Salaries seem to be too low. Yeah, seems so - 80k is on the higher end, but possible in Poland, while the CoL is laughably low compared to Germany.
xii23 4y ago
You can get way more than 100k if you’re applying to tier 1 and tier 2 companies in Berlin. I’m at around 160k (6 yoe); but I agree with you, we are getting paid less for the same work as our American coworkers
- FlyingSnake 4y ago
  I’m having a hard time believing it, so pardon my skepticism but which company pays €160K for a 6YoE in Berlin?
  - xii23 4y ago
    I don’t want to say something that might dox me, but there’s quite a few, check levels.fyi

kybernetyk 4y ago

Is this 100k gross or net pay?

orthoxerox 4y ago
100% gross
manmal 4y ago
Gross. Net depends on various factors (kids, spouse etc) so isn’t usually used for comparison. Personally I‘m living in Austria, where things are quite similar - I‘d say 100k gross should work out to 55k net for a freelancer. That’s after having paid for a deductible company car and hardware etc, so, again, hard to compare to others.
throwaway908365 4y ago
It is gross, but very hard to compare, because it does not include your employer having to pay halfes on social securities. Actual gross would be something like 120k, but with obligatory expenses, you cannot opt out of. Net would be something like 55k if you are single, but you already paid into a mandatory retirement plan and you, your kids (and laughably also your partner) are health insured.
f1shy 4y ago
Gross... and about the 1/2 goes away. Like 45%. Also depending on where you come from, you can be shock by the 19% VAT on almost everything. While food is cheap, some other things are more expensive (tech stuff). The gov. has good health service, and also education. But the education system has some interesting limitations, that may surprise you.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  FYI you only pay 45% on the income that exceeds 277826€ annually. A typical rate for 100k€ income for a family of 4 would be 15%.
  - single_identity 4y ago
    I'll say again. Please stop spreading this nonsense information around the thread. Either you're very much misinformed or motivated by something else. Just stop.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>salaries seem to be too low. You are often getting low-balled because "it would not fit within the salaries of the other team members". Preach it! CoL in German cities is far too high for how low skilled dev wages are. 100k at 15 years work experience is an insult when you look at Munich/Berlin house prices and that new grads can get 60k. And DW posted a YouTube video yesterday about how Germany has a shortage of software developers and they need to actively recruit from India and Pakistan. [1] More like a shortage of desperate people willing to be low balled and a shortage of companies paying good wages. Companies in Germany need to start paying ICs more and stop complaining about shortage of workers. Simple. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Mch8xDCZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Mch8xDCZU

fxtentacle 4y ago
I strongly disagree. Here's a family home with garden in the Berlin area that you can rent-to-own at 1900€ per month: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/135035667 https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/135035667 So with a 100k€ annual salary, one working parent alone can buy the house and feed the entire family. You consider that an "insult"?
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  We are talking about someone with 15 years experience though. 100k @ 15 years is too low when new grads now start at 60k. So you hire someone who has 14 years of extra experience and brings a lot more value to the company and only pay them 40k extra? That's why I'm saying it feels like an insult.
  - fxtentacle 4y ago
    15 years of experience might also mean they are excellent at PHP+jQuery but have never heard of Rails+React ;)
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Sure, we are getting into semantics now. 15 years experience could mean knowing how to lead and bring up a team and product form scratch or it could also mean 15x 1 year experience if that person was constantly switching stacks/companies. It's why we should compare salaries for positions rather than YoE.

fxtentacle 4y ago

100k€ for 15 years of experience seems about right for me. If you factor in all the freebies and tax refunds and stuff, that's roughly equivalent to earning 1000€ per billable day as a German freelancer, or the equivalent of about $150 per hour in the US. Typical freebies in Germany include: - 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary) - only half of your health insurance costs are included in the nominal salary - tax refunds if you buy a PC, do courses, or drive to work with your car - company pays for children's daycare - government-backed retirement fund with generous payouts. If you pay in 83€ per month now you can expect to receive at least €450 per month later. Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living.

throwaway908365 4y ago
> - 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary) My 100k number is all-in. > Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living. That is true. But you have to say goodbye to any romantic dreams about owning any property big enough for children (within a nice area of such a city), if you and a similiarly well-doing partner do not want to work for it for the rest of your life. If you have not come across FIRE, that might be okay as well.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  Yes of course. A 100k€ annual salary won't let you retire early if you are the only one working in your family and you want to buy a nice house in a nice area of the city. But then again, would that work out if you were to work in San Francisco for $200k annually?
  - throwaway908365 4y ago

mkl95 4y ago

> Landing lead/lower management roles seems to be difficult if you have limited experience leading people. Those seem to be mostly staffed internally. Because at most places lead/lower management is another word for yes men that have proven their blind loyalty to the CTO, usually for 2 or 3 years. They don't wanna hire a manager who may question the status quo, especially when it comes to architecture and best practices. > The market value for a profile like mine in a big German city seems to be around 100k € including some small bonus. That sounds low to me and attainable in Europe if you have 5+ YoE at the right places. It sounds to me like you are being lowballed. I'm getting similar offers with way less experience.

f1shy 4y ago
Specially in Germany middle management is all about contacts (they call it "B-Vitamin" because of the german word for "relationship" starts with "B") who do you know and who knows you is the most important thing... Technical background is relegated to a second plane (to say the least) because you are "not supposed to solve the problems, but to manage the people who actually solve the problems".
donkeyd 4y ago
> That sounds low to me and attainable in Europe if you have 5+ YoE at the right places. It sounds to me like you are being lowballed. I'm getting similar offers with way less experience. Where you at? In the Netherlands getting anything over €70k is incredibly hard. There are very few companies offering close to that and those are often for architecture roles. Lead dev is usually €60-70k, with some €70-80k exceptions, but those usually require ~10 years focused experience. Interestingly, over here the freelance market is much better. Those will easily get you €100-150k gross and are often quite long term. And even with €100k, combined with all the tax benefits it's very much worth it.
- mkl95 4y ago
  My country is lower income than the Netherlands and Germany. 70k is upper management money here and a bit more than what I make. I have talked to some companies in Ireland and the UK in the last few months, and their ranges usually start at 80/90k. The most famous example is probably Google. Entry level (L3) is 100k-ish and L4 starts at ~120k. Even if OP was placed at a below average level for someone with 15 YoE, they should be getting 150k+ offers.

mrcartmeneses 4y ago

Do you have any advice for freelancing in Germany? I’ll be moving to Berlin in January, aber ich spreche nur Englisch und ich lerne Deutsch. Ich habe die EU-Staatsbürgerschaft und meine Frau kommt aus Berlin. I am a senior front end dev who has experience leading teams

f1shy 4y ago
Why do you want freelance? You can apply to any job... AFAIK the headaches of tax declaration and setup for freelance are not worth it.
- mrcartmeneses 4y ago
  I just hate being “employed”. All of the politics and incompetence in other people’s businesses reminds me too much of the Russian communist party. Every large capitalist company ends up like a low-stakes episode of the Netflix series Chernobyl. Perhaps I’m just grumpy but that’s who I am. I’d much rather just code some stuff and get out before I start having to “assassinate” my managers. If I could find a place that allowed workers to vote out managers then maybe I’d be happy, but until then I’ll just come and go. Like politicians, managers are only as good as your ability to fire them. You’ll love my code, your customers will be happy. Let me go before I make you cry.
jagermo 4y ago
former freelancer here (writing, not coding), but I would not do it again, the stress around taxes, insurance etc alone is not worth it (at least for me). Plus, you probably won't be leading teams but be more of a workbench. However, if you don't want to be tied down, something like "Elternzeitvertretung" (aka jumping in for people on paternity/maternity leave) might be interesting for you.
throwaway908365 4y ago
Welcome :). Berlin in January is tough, even for German standards. 1. Just get a tax advisor who is fine speaking English with you. Just let him do everything in the beginning. Afterwards you can do more of that yourself. Try to be classified as Freiberuflich, not Gewerbetreibender. It helps if you have an engineering degree, but he can help you with that. 2. Do at least two gigs per year (Scheinselbstständigkeit). 3. Use HAYS and others to start it of. 4. Continue to learn German. Maybe do some German interview training or something to get in. There are teams working in English, but you will have an easier time overall.

nemo44x 4y ago

You’re being ripped off. I’m paying guys in various parts of Europe well more than this with probably less experience. European software developers are grossly underpaid across the board but 100k is very low. I’m paying around 120-130k in Amsterdam which has a similar CoL to Berlin.

teux 4y ago
Can I ask if you know how average costs in Scandinavia hold up to that? Working in Norway atm making ~90k€ equivalent after some time, but I took the paycut from the US because of quality of life/healthcare/state pension, etc. Still, it’s a very good salary here, I’m in the top few % of all Norwegians. But it was a huge paycut. I’m definitely happier than I was in the US but I have been considering moving a bit further south. Bumping up to 120k and getting more sunshine would be very nice.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  I’m not sure about Norway but Sweden/Stockholm is in the same class as Berlin, Amsterdam, etc. I feel like Norway would be higher but I’m not certain. Premium areas are London and Paris. But even these salaries are closer to a middle rate USA city. Super-premium (on par with more expensive USA salaries like SF or NYC) is Switzerland. Very expensive to hire there and easily the highest salaries in Europe in my experience. This is just based on a CoL ratings at a single place.
  - mrfumier 4y ago
    Paris ? Like, how much ? When looking at offers there, there is absolutly nothing beyond 70k.
- sandos 4y ago
  I think Sweden might be worse in all of Europe though. 90k€ is unheard of here for developers, unless you are managing a team or a middle manager or something. Well ok, maybe its a thing in Stockholm actually. Living in a slightly smaller city, now way Jose. I am applying currently, don't know how that will turn out, but he manager even said that Swedish developers are cheaper for the company than people from Germany, Switzerland and I think even Poland was getting bigger wages. So Sweden has this low-wage aura apparently.

j33zusjuice 4y ago

Not to mention the 42% paid in taxes every year, assuming the €100k is gross, not net. €58,000 seems like a low take-home, even with all the caveats you gave.

throwaway908365 4y ago
This is not how taxes work. 42% is the marginal rate, not the effective rate.
fxtentacle 4y ago
The actual tax rate with 2 kids and 2 adults out of which only 1 works and earns €100k is going to be 18% if you don't declare ANY deductions.

KptMarchewa 4y ago

>Salaries seem to be too low. Yeah, seems so - 80k is on the higher end, but possible in Poland, while the CoL is laughably low compared to Germany.

xii23 4y ago

You can get way more than 100k if you’re applying to tier 1 and tier 2 companies in Berlin. I’m at around 160k (6 yoe); but I agree with you, we are getting paid less for the same work as our American coworkers

FlyingSnake 4y ago
I’m having a hard time believing it, so pardon my skepticism but which company pays €160K for a 6YoE in Berlin?
- xii23 4y ago
  I don’t want to say something that might dox me, but there’s quite a few, check levels.fyi