5 ms·

I don't think that happens too often. The problem is that there are at least two different and often opposing currents in pro-trans movements. One is from the

I don't think that happens too often. The problem is that there are at least two different and often opposing currents in pro-trans movements. One is from the "gender is a social construct" post-modernist side, which views the very idea that people are either men or women with some suspicion, and leads to concepts such as gender fluidity, non-binary identities, and the idea that maybe young kids should not be gendered at all unless and until they chose to assume some gender. The other current is much more conservative, and starts with the simple observation that some people experience extreme gender dysphoria that has only successfully been cured (or at least alleviated) by gender-affirming care (from gender expression to hormone treatments to top/bottom surgery to facial feminization/masculinization surgery and beyond). This current considers it much more clear that humans are generally either men or women, with relatively clear associated characteristics, and simply considers that some people happen to have the "wrong" characteristics. Rather than investigating the philosophical reasoning of why this might be happening and what it means for the concepts woman/man, it is much more concerned with the practical problem of how to make life better for people who feel like this. My impression is that the second group is much much more prevalent, but also seen as problematic by the first group. The first group is much more extreme, and has much more "interesting" talking points, so it is significantly over-represented in online discussions and media.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Kye 4y ago
Then there's the third one that sees that there probably is some biological aspect, but the way it's expressed depends on the culture's concept of gender. I favor this one since it provides an explanation for the existence of trans people of some sort in every society throughout history without discounting nature or nurture.
zozbot234 4y ago
The question of how many people happen to genuinely be in the liminal space between male and female gender expression is very much an empirical matter, not about philosophy. In the real world, seemingly clear-cut binary distinctions and fuzzy, mysterious liminal phenomena are not opposed to one another; they can very much coexist.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I would suggest that empirically it's pretty much everybody. Almost nobody is entirely masculine or feminine. And it seems to me that the world would be a better place if we recognised that for everybody not just those who especially struggle with a world that places us into binary categories.
nicoburns 4y ago
> My impression is that the second group is much much more prevalent, but also seen as problematic by the first group. The first group is much more extreme, and has much more "interesting" talking points, so it is significantly over-represented in online discussions and media. My impression is that extreme opinions are mostly from two subgroups of the second group: - Those who believe that gender is essentially defined by physical characteristics - Those who believe that gender is essentially defined by social characteristics. Their inability (or unwillingness) to more deeply consider the concepts of "men"/"women" place them in conflict with each other because each of them want to use a different concept, and neither of them are open to exploring different ones. The only way I can see this being resolved is by taking an attitude more similar to first group.
- simiones 4y ago
  True, a little bit of philosophy can be a dangerous thing, since it can lead to a shallow kind of idealism that can easily fall into extremism at all. However, I believe that the general attitude of the trans community is relatively moderate and easy to accept: 1. Trans people should be able to get the kinds of treatment they need (from therapy all the way to aesthetic surgery), in cooperation with their doctors. Children should be allowed to get some treatment, and their parents should be involved (with some complexity when the parents' bigotry may interfere with the best interest of the child). 2. Other people shouldn't be allowed to ostracize one for being trans, and should seek to accommodate them (such as not referring to them with the wrong pronouns or name); accidental use is easily forgiven, but intentional misgendering is clearly malicious; the problem of "non-passing" trans people complicates this somewhat 3. Trans people should be allowed to use the amenities that correspond to their gender, which will, in the vast majority of circumstances, correspond to their gender presentation; "non-passing" trans people complicate this, as does participation in competitive sports However, I believe trying to modify society to dispense with the concepts man & woman, or to avoid inoculating them in children - as would be natural if we take the position of the first group too seriously - is way beyond what most people would agree with. Of course, extreme positions such as trans-medicalists/truscum or people insisting everyone "shares their pronouns" and such are somewhat significant sub-groups, as are people who insist that children should be able to just take hormones without any supervision from doctors or parents if they really think it's right for them (I've seen this exact position on HN before). But while they exist, I think they are still loud minorities, even within the relatively small trans community.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Kye 4y ago

Then there's the third one that sees that there probably is some biological aspect, but the way it's expressed depends on the culture's concept of gender. I favor this one since it provides an explanation for the existence of trans people of some sort in every society throughout history without discounting nature or nurture.

zozbot234 4y ago

The question of how many people happen to genuinely be in the liminal space between male and female gender expression is very much an empirical matter, not about philosophy. In the real world, seemingly clear-cut binary distinctions and fuzzy, mysterious liminal phenomena are not opposed to one another; they can very much coexist.

nicoburns 4y ago
I would suggest that empirically it's pretty much everybody. Almost nobody is entirely masculine or feminine. And it seems to me that the world would be a better place if we recognised that for everybody not just those who especially struggle with a world that places us into binary categories.

nicoburns 4y ago

> My impression is that the second group is much much more prevalent, but also seen as problematic by the first group. The first group is much more extreme, and has much more "interesting" talking points, so it is significantly over-represented in online discussions and media. My impression is that extreme opinions are mostly from two subgroups of the second group: - Those who believe that gender is essentially defined by physical characteristics - Those who believe that gender is essentially defined by social characteristics. Their inability (or unwillingness) to more deeply consider the concepts of "men"/"women" place them in conflict with each other because each of them want to use a different concept, and neither of them are open to exploring different ones. The only way I can see this being resolved is by taking an attitude more similar to first group.

simiones 4y ago
True, a little bit of philosophy can be a dangerous thing, since it can lead to a shallow kind of idealism that can easily fall into extremism at all. However, I believe that the general attitude of the trans community is relatively moderate and easy to accept: 1. Trans people should be able to get the kinds of treatment they need (from therapy all the way to aesthetic surgery), in cooperation with their doctors. Children should be allowed to get some treatment, and their parents should be involved (with some complexity when the parents' bigotry may interfere with the best interest of the child). 2. Other people shouldn't be allowed to ostracize one for being trans, and should seek to accommodate them (such as not referring to them with the wrong pronouns or name); accidental use is easily forgiven, but intentional misgendering is clearly malicious; the problem of "non-passing" trans people complicates this somewhat 3. Trans people should be allowed to use the amenities that correspond to their gender, which will, in the vast majority of circumstances, correspond to their gender presentation; "non-passing" trans people complicate this, as does participation in competitive sports However, I believe trying to modify society to dispense with the concepts man & woman, or to avoid inoculating them in children - as would be natural if we take the position of the first group too seriously - is way beyond what most people would agree with. Of course, extreme positions such as trans-medicalists/truscum or people insisting everyone "shares their pronouns" and such are somewhat significant sub-groups, as are people who insist that children should be able to just take hormones without any supervision from doctors or parents if they really think it's right for them (I've seen this exact position on HN before). But while they exist, I think they are still loud minorities, even within the relatively small trans community.