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As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexu

by xd 4y ago

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN users that feel sexualisation of children isn't bad is utterly shameful.

quietbritishjim 4y ago
I have no skin in the overall debate but it's clear that a prince and princess running off together in a Disney film is heteronormative, while most people wouldn't consider it to be abhorrently sexualising for children to watch those films.
- refurb 4y ago
  I mean, heterosexuality is the predominant form of sexuality in humans? Humans come in all forms. Most humans have two legs, but not all. Some are born missing a leg and some lose them from injuries. If we only show two legged characters in Disney films does that mean it's some sinister message of "bipedalnormativity"?
  - quietbritishjim 4y ago
    I never said it was sinister. I just made a statement of fact that it shows a heterosexual relationship, but doesn't significantly sexualise children. If anything, my comment could be construed as defending that sort of film rather than attacking it.
pjc50 4y ago
You've not noticed the pink for girls/blue for boys distinction?
- xd 4y ago
  Yes and me and my wife laugh about it but there is an obvious distinctive preference for kids male and female which will play into sales .. no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and even back in the 80s growing up I knew kids that would buy toys you'd associate with the other gender.
  - the_af 4y ago
    A societal pressure doesn't mean it's forced. Most societal pressures aren't. Instead, they are strong expectations and in occasions, frowning upon behavior that deviates from the expectation. This creates tremendous pressure. Just look at teenager social dynamics, lots of "unenforced" expectations become critical for them.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  How is that “ massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity”?
  - acdha 4y ago
    That distinction goes back to decisions made by a few department store managers around WWII. It’s nothing but a cultural norm reinforced everywhere so pervasively most of us aren’t even aware of the pressure. https://www.thelist.com/32342/real-reasons-behind-blue-boys-pink-girls/ https://www.thelist.com/32342/real-reasons-behind-blue-boys-...
- TrispusAttucks 4y ago
  The colors used to be switched in the 1800s. Pink for boys and blue for girls.
  - mc32 4y ago
    And before that color was too expensive. But one wouldn’t say that gender roles did not exist. Color is nothing but an added expression like lipstick or horsehair wigs. For some today black is the macho color, for others it’s the artistic color.
Macha 4y ago
The assumption that this is inherently sex related is where the issue starts. This is why the discussion shifted from talking about sexuality to talking about gender nearly 20 years ago. Ideas like boys cannot wear skirts or play with barbies are present from a young age, yet we don't accuse people opposed to boys with skirts/barbies of thinking about said boys future sexuality.
- Closi 4y ago
  > The assumption that this is inherently sex related is where the issue starts. This is why the discussion shifted from talking about sexuality to talking about gender nearly 20 years ago. Well it was the parent comment that was linking this to sexuality - Hetronormativity is inherently about sexuality (i.e. Hetro-Normativity - Hetro -> Heterosexual: of, pertaining to, or being a heterosexual person).
dsiegel2275 4y ago
I think "pushing heteronormativity" doesn't need to be a conscious, deliberate act and it doesn't need to be anything related to sex. It can be as simple as a parent buying their son a toy truck for their birthday while buying a barbie doll for their daughter: a reinforcement of socially acceptable gender roles
- xd 4y ago
  I've never known a kid to not ask for toys they prefer.. you make the simple act of giving a child a gift sound sinister.. what a world we live in.
  - bognition 4y ago
    It's not sinister in the slightest, but people should understand the larger picture. Where do those preferences come from? I've seen first hand the impact that media, advertising, and social pressures at school have had on my children's preferences.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > Where do those preferences come from? I've seen first hand the impact that media, advertising, and social pressures at school have had on my children's preferences. Sure, but why is that a problem? Our preferences are of course sculpted by our environment, and that's not a problem as long the people who fall outside of those norms aren't punished for it. Assuming those norms aren't harmful of course, eg. not good to normalize psychopathy.
      - ryanbrunner 4y ago
        It's basically inevitable that children are going to exposed to some normative behaviour, particularly around gender. I think the important part is that we're not so quick to denounce and suppress any messaging that exposes children to the existence of behaviour outside of those gender norms, that's when it goes from just existing in a society where gender norms exist to maintaining and enforcing those gender norms.
maxbond 4y ago
Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. Children are constantly exploring identity, as I'm sure you have observed. For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I saw that other people incorporated these activities in their identities, and I wanted to try it. This was no more sexual than when I play acted as a soldier or decided I liked to wear cargo pants; I was experimenting with who I was or could become, because that is what children do. This is a convenient segue to heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the societal pressure to conform to the traditional gender roles of men and women who pursue heterosexual relationships. My parents didn't like me playing with Barbie dolls; they explicitly told me that it wasn't something boys did. This transmits a set of expectations about how I should behave, based on my gender. Notice that their telling me it was wrong to play with dolls was no more sexual than if they had allowed me to play with the dolls.
- mc32 4y ago
  My take is kids play with whatever is around. If your dad has acetylene torches around and your mom has axes around the house you’re going to play with them. It does not mean or imply or predict that you want to burn the house down or you want to become a butcher or axe murderer. You’re not exploring being a pyromaniac or a murderer. You’re just playing, that’s it. Same with high heels, smoking pipes, hunting rifles or lipstick. Kids don’t know their meaning yet (context of usage).
- refurb 4y ago
  For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I wouldn't see trying on lipstick or playing with Barbie dolls as "exploring a gender identity" as neither of those are exclusive to one gender, even in a heteronormative world.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    I'm not saying you are wrong, but in the culture of my household, my school, and the people I had contact with as a child, this was seen as strange and something to be discouraged, because these things were seen as gendered. I think these things were much more gendered at the time, as well. It is crazy for me to look back and remember how there was a time when I hadn't made up my mind about whether gay marriage was okay or not. Things have changed a lot over the past 20 years or so.
em-bee 4y ago
it's not the parents, it's everyone around us. i can buy gender neutral toys, clothing and encourage the children to explore everything and not just gender conform activities as much as i want. but when almost every other friend, relative, other kindergarten/school parents teachers push their own ideas of what is appropriate for girls or boys, my influence ends up being rather small. i can't push my own ideas here. i can only encourage and protect the diverse interests that my kids develop on their own.
bognition 4y ago
I get it that this stuff is confusing and can be hard to make sense of at first, but gender identity and sexuality are completely different things. Also I'm not accusing anyone of pushing this on their kids, rather, our society does it in massive doses. Watch most children's TV shows or movies and heteronormativity is abundant. For a pretty clean example of this check out the movie Up by Pixar. The first 10 minutes of the movie are devoted to Carl & Ellie's relationship and the loss of that relationship serves as a major driver for the movie. Also there's nothing wrong with showing children this kind of content. It helps them make sense of the world. However, there is an issue with representation. When it's all they see then it constrains their minds as to what is possible.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  > I get it that this stuff is confusing and can be hard to make sense of at first, but gender identity and sexuality are completely different things. Yeah, but the comment OP is responding to was explicitly about letting kids "explore their sexuality".
  - maxbond 4y ago
    > With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Emphasis mine. The comment is not, in fact, about letting children explore their sexuality, but people. (When you consider the parent of that comment, that still does not add context implying that we're talking about kids.) The only part of the comment which discusses children is this: > For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. To read this as sexualizing children is misunderstanding the term heteronormativity, but regardless, this is the behavior that is being criticized, not championed.
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      You chopped the one statement into different "parts". Here is the comment in question: > For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. In a maximally generous interpretation, you could say that the "kids" in the first half and the "people" in the second half of the statement are completely different subjects. I think that is a bit of a stretch, though. "For years I have been pruning the tomato plants in my garden. Now, I just let the _plants_ grow". Anyone reading that would assume "plants" refers to the aforementioned tomato plants, not cucumbers.
notadev 4y ago
Terms like “heteronormativity” and “cisgender” are just ways they attempt to marginalize normal people and their normal sexual development. These people who use these terms are objectively and statistically outliers in society. And since they can’t convince anyone to accept their abnormality, they instead try to change language to remove the idea of there being a standard/normal baseline. They think that because you’re not trying to make them “explore their gender identity” while teaching them ABCs that you are pushing something. It’s absolute projection. I support all people to live their lives how they see fit, but I refuse to use their newspeak or pretend like there is not a natural normal.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Interestingly, newspeak was about removing words from language so that certain ideas couldn't be expressed. It was explicitly not about adding words to the language, and certainly not about adding words to convey additional nuance and precision where there was previously none. It seems to me like you're actually arguing to try and remove words that people have introduced to the language, and to erase the nuances they convey, because you don't find it to be "normal" or "natural". What is normal or natural is entirely subjective, and varies across cultures and across time, and in any case we don't generally yoke ourselves to what is natural (we are, after all, speaking through an artificial medium because we find it advantageous, and though we weren't born with wings we often find it advantageous to fly.) It might be interesting to give 1984 another read.
  - notadev 4y ago
    I know it’s from 1984, but it’s considered a word itself as far as I can tell. I was using it as “Deliberately ambiguous and contradictory language used to mislead and manipulate the public.” Heterosexuality is the norm, it is the default. Heteronormativity is some nonsense phrase that is used in place of “normal” to try and draw a false equivalency between normal and abnormal. It is intended to muddy the waters and mislead like most contemporary “woke” language.
    - maxbond 4y ago
kayodelycaon 4y ago
It’s pretty simple. I grew up with the social expectation I would be some special attraction to girls beyond friendship. There were some people shamefully attracted to boys. I’m neither of these. I’ve never experienced sexual attraction to anyone. Every relationship I have is happily platonic. I have several good, close friends, so I capable of deep emotional bonds to people of any gender. This would have been fine if I didn’t have a high sex drive. But I do. You’re not supposed to have a high sex drive while being completely uninterested. I’ve wondered most of my life why I was broken. It was extremely isolating to be constantly surrounded by messages telling me there is something wrong with me. Then I found out what asexuality is. That’s what I am. Romantic attraction can be completely devoid of sexual attraction. Someone’s sex drive can be independent of a person’s sexuality. It hasn’t been any less isolating, but at least I know there is nothing wrong with me as a person.
efkiel 4y ago
heteronormativity include sexual behavior, but mostly contains other behavior. Like the way you dress, talk or present yourself, the activities or kind of play you do or like. Parent comment is mostly talking about non-sexual heteronormativity, which is often presented as the norm. An obvious example would be an adult insisting that pink is for girl and blue for boys, and shaming a kid for liking what's not the (hetero-)norm.
simiones 4y ago
Have you never asked or seen others ask your boy(s) what girl(s) they prefer at school, or vice versa? Have you never seen anyone upset if their boys are playing with dolls or their girls are playing with toy swords? How do you think most parents would react if someone bought a pink dress as a present for for their 6 month old boy, or blue pants for their 6 month old girl? How would most parents react even today to a children's cartoon featuring two little boys holding hands and kissing on the cheek, or a story about prince charming saving and marrying another prince charming? Pretending heteronormativity is just some sex related thing that no one actually talks about is absurd.
ryanbrunner 4y ago
How many Disney movies has your child watched? Heteronormativity is 100% prevalent in nearly all media. You don't even have to single out Disney, 99% of popular media will present heterosexual relationships as the norm, and children's media that shows something as benign as a same sex couple holding hands or hugging is viewed as mildly transgressive or at least newsworthy. Gender non-comforming behaviour is 100% absent outside of maybe a "tomboy" female character (and even that seems less present than it used to be).
jasonlotito 4y ago
Heteronormativity isn’t sexualizing anything. The only person talking about sexualizing children is you. The voting on your comment is crazy because your ignorance on the topic is showing and it’s dangerous and insulting. Educate yourself.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  Read bognition's comment. They literally say that kids are "empowered to explore their sexuality".
  - maxbond 4y ago
    This is incorrect, as you and I discuss here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879888
  - jasonlotito 4y ago
    This comment is a lie. They literally do not say "kids are empowered to explore their sexuality." Kids grow up into adults. xd is the one that brought up sexualizing children. No reasonable person here would assume anyone is talking about sexualizing children unless they explicitly said as much. Somehow you and xd are thinking "people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality" explicitly means "kids" in this context. Why you are thinking that, I don't know.
    - xd 4y ago
      "For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality." He talks about society putting pressure on kids to be straight and then talks about people and sexuality in the same damn paragraph; are you being purposefully obtuse?
iwillbenice 4y ago
acdha 4y ago
I think the downvotes are coming because you’re insisting on treating this as a question of sexualization. Gender is distinct and it’s reinforced early on - my son is 5 and most of his classmates have had things like “pink and skirts and dolls are for girls”, “trucks and blue and guns are for boys” established as the norm for years. That’s not perfectly reliable - we know more sparkly princesses who climb trees and drive race cars than I did at his age - but it’s _everywhere_, and the religious conservatives who call any acknowledgment of LGBTQ people “grooming” would 100% be locking and loading if even 10% of that reinforcement energy was going into LGBTQ acceptance. Also note that none of this is about having sex: it’s about telling kids which archetypes are available for them as grownups. If we want to talk about sex, however, look at the degree to which girl’s clothing mimics the styles of adult women even at the expense of practicality for the things kids actually do and how many stories even for young children revolve around the major life goal being an exclusive relationship with a man. Again, the stuff people are complaining about now is an order of magnitude less than what kids are already getting to reinforce traditional gender norms.
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality I definitely learned before age 13 that being gay/lesbian was bad (I'm bisexual and in my mid 40s). I definitely learned that I was expected to grow up and get married and have kids and if I worked, it was really to help the spouse. I remember my parents suddenly getting upset that I had male friends and didn't want me spending time with them the same way (this was around age 10). No one talked to me about attraction and if they did, never explained that I might feel that way about women as well as men. This is what heteronormativity is. This is pushing sexual preferences on youth. Exploring sexuality isn't about actual sex acts, but more about learning who you are and who you are attracted to. You know, the sorts of folks you'd like to date and eventually, the sorts of folks you want to spend your life with. This sort of thing is most definitely encouraged, but sometimes the only acceptable option presented is the hetronormativity - you know, "biblical" monogamous relationships that produce children, and if you are female and don't want children, you are broken. This isn't sexualisation of children.

by xd 4y ago

quietbritishjim 4y ago

I have no skin in the overall debate but it's clear that a prince and princess running off together in a Disney film is heteronormative, while most people wouldn't consider it to be abhorrently sexualising for children to watch those films.

refurb 4y ago
I mean, heterosexuality is the predominant form of sexuality in humans? Humans come in all forms. Most humans have two legs, but not all. Some are born missing a leg and some lose them from injuries. If we only show two legged characters in Disney films does that mean it's some sinister message of "bipedalnormativity"?
- quietbritishjim 4y ago
  I never said it was sinister. I just made a statement of fact that it shows a heterosexual relationship, but doesn't significantly sexualise children. If anything, my comment could be construed as defending that sort of film rather than attacking it.

pjc50 4y ago

You've not noticed the pink for girls/blue for boys distinction?

xd 4y ago
Yes and me and my wife laugh about it but there is an obvious distinctive preference for kids male and female which will play into sales .. no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and even back in the 80s growing up I knew kids that would buy toys you'd associate with the other gender.
- the_af 4y ago
  A societal pressure doesn't mean it's forced. Most societal pressures aren't. Instead, they are strong expectations and in occasions, frowning upon behavior that deviates from the expectation. This creates tremendous pressure. Just look at teenager social dynamics, lots of "unenforced" expectations become critical for them.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
How is that “ massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity”?
- acdha 4y ago
  That distinction goes back to decisions made by a few department store managers around WWII. It’s nothing but a cultural norm reinforced everywhere so pervasively most of us aren’t even aware of the pressure. https://www.thelist.com/32342/real-reasons-behind-blue-boys-pink-girls/ https://www.thelist.com/32342/real-reasons-behind-blue-boys-...
TrispusAttucks 4y ago
The colors used to be switched in the 1800s. Pink for boys and blue for girls.
- mc32 4y ago
  And before that color was too expensive. But one wouldn’t say that gender roles did not exist. Color is nothing but an added expression like lipstick or horsehair wigs. For some today black is the macho color, for others it’s the artistic color.

Macha 4y ago

The assumption that this is inherently sex related is where the issue starts. This is why the discussion shifted from talking about sexuality to talking about gender nearly 20 years ago. Ideas like boys cannot wear skirts or play with barbies are present from a young age, yet we don't accuse people opposed to boys with skirts/barbies of thinking about said boys future sexuality.

Closi 4y ago
> The assumption that this is inherently sex related is where the issue starts. This is why the discussion shifted from talking about sexuality to talking about gender nearly 20 years ago. Well it was the parent comment that was linking this to sexuality - Hetronormativity is inherently about sexuality (i.e. Hetro-Normativity - Hetro -> Heterosexual: of, pertaining to, or being a heterosexual person).

dsiegel2275 4y ago

I think "pushing heteronormativity" doesn't need to be a conscious, deliberate act and it doesn't need to be anything related to sex. It can be as simple as a parent buying their son a toy truck for their birthday while buying a barbie doll for their daughter: a reinforcement of socially acceptable gender roles

xd 4y ago
I've never known a kid to not ask for toys they prefer.. you make the simple act of giving a child a gift sound sinister.. what a world we live in.
- bognition 4y ago
  It's not sinister in the slightest, but people should understand the larger picture. Where do those preferences come from? I've seen first hand the impact that media, advertising, and social pressures at school have had on my children's preferences.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > Where do those preferences come from? I've seen first hand the impact that media, advertising, and social pressures at school have had on my children's preferences. Sure, but why is that a problem? Our preferences are of course sculpted by our environment, and that's not a problem as long the people who fall outside of those norms aren't punished for it. Assuming those norms aren't harmful of course, eg. not good to normalize psychopathy.
    - ryanbrunner 4y ago
      It's basically inevitable that children are going to exposed to some normative behaviour, particularly around gender. I think the important part is that we're not so quick to denounce and suppress any messaging that exposes children to the existence of behaviour outside of those gender norms, that's when it goes from just existing in a society where gender norms exist to maintaining and enforcing those gender norms.

maxbond 4y ago

Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. Children are constantly exploring identity, as I'm sure you have observed. For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I saw that other people incorporated these activities in their identities, and I wanted to try it. This was no more sexual than when I play acted as a soldier or decided I liked to wear cargo pants; I was experimenting with who I was or could become, because that is what children do. This is a convenient segue to heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the societal pressure to conform to the traditional gender roles of men and women who pursue heterosexual relationships. My parents didn't like me playing with Barbie dolls; they explicitly told me that it wasn't something boys did. This transmits a set of expectations about how I should behave, based on my gender. Notice that their telling me it was wrong to play with dolls was no more sexual than if they had allowed me to play with the dolls.

mc32 4y ago
My take is kids play with whatever is around. If your dad has acetylene torches around and your mom has axes around the house you’re going to play with them. It does not mean or imply or predict that you want to burn the house down or you want to become a butcher or axe murderer. You’re not exploring being a pyromaniac or a murderer. You’re just playing, that’s it. Same with high heels, smoking pipes, hunting rifles or lipstick. Kids don’t know their meaning yet (context of usage).
refurb 4y ago
For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I wouldn't see trying on lipstick or playing with Barbie dolls as "exploring a gender identity" as neither of those are exclusive to one gender, even in a heteronormative world.
- maxbond 4y ago
  I'm not saying you are wrong, but in the culture of my household, my school, and the people I had contact with as a child, this was seen as strange and something to be discouraged, because these things were seen as gendered. I think these things were much more gendered at the time, as well. It is crazy for me to look back and remember how there was a time when I hadn't made up my mind about whether gay marriage was okay or not. Things have changed a lot over the past 20 years or so.

em-bee 4y ago

it's not the parents, it's everyone around us. i can buy gender neutral toys, clothing and encourage the children to explore everything and not just gender conform activities as much as i want. but when almost every other friend, relative, other kindergarten/school parents teachers push their own ideas of what is appropriate for girls or boys, my influence ends up being rather small. i can't push my own ideas here. i can only encourage and protect the diverse interests that my kids develop on their own.

bognition 4y ago

I get it that this stuff is confusing and can be hard to make sense of at first, but gender identity and sexuality are completely different things. Also I'm not accusing anyone of pushing this on their kids, rather, our society does it in massive doses. Watch most children's TV shows or movies and heteronormativity is abundant. For a pretty clean example of this check out the movie Up by Pixar. The first 10 minutes of the movie are devoted to Carl & Ellie's relationship and the loss of that relationship serves as a major driver for the movie. Also there's nothing wrong with showing children this kind of content. It helps them make sense of the world. However, there is an issue with representation. When it's all they see then it constrains their minds as to what is possible.

dahfizz 4y ago
> I get it that this stuff is confusing and can be hard to make sense of at first, but gender identity and sexuality are completely different things. Yeah, but the comment OP is responding to was explicitly about letting kids "explore their sexuality".
- maxbond 4y ago
  > With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Emphasis mine. The comment is not, in fact, about letting children explore their sexuality, but people. (When you consider the parent of that comment, that still does not add context implying that we're talking about kids.) The only part of the comment which discusses children is this: > For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. To read this as sexualizing children is misunderstanding the term heteronormativity, but regardless, this is the behavior that is being criticized, not championed.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    You chopped the one statement into different "parts". Here is the comment in question: > For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. In a maximally generous interpretation, you could say that the "kids" in the first half and the "people" in the second half of the statement are completely different subjects. I think that is a bit of a stretch, though. "For years I have been pruning the tomato plants in my garden. Now, I just let the _plants_ grow". Anyone reading that would assume "plants" refers to the aforementioned tomato plants, not cucumbers.

notadev 4y ago

Terms like “heteronormativity” and “cisgender” are just ways they attempt to marginalize normal people and their normal sexual development. These people who use these terms are objectively and statistically outliers in society. And since they can’t convince anyone to accept their abnormality, they instead try to change language to remove the idea of there being a standard/normal baseline. They think that because you’re not trying to make them “explore their gender identity” while teaching them ABCs that you are pushing something. It’s absolute projection. I support all people to live their lives how they see fit, but I refuse to use their newspeak or pretend like there is not a natural normal.

maxbond 4y ago
Interestingly, newspeak was about removing words from language so that certain ideas couldn't be expressed. It was explicitly not about adding words to the language, and certainly not about adding words to convey additional nuance and precision where there was previously none. It seems to me like you're actually arguing to try and remove words that people have introduced to the language, and to erase the nuances they convey, because you don't find it to be "normal" or "natural". What is normal or natural is entirely subjective, and varies across cultures and across time, and in any case we don't generally yoke ourselves to what is natural (we are, after all, speaking through an artificial medium because we find it advantageous, and though we weren't born with wings we often find it advantageous to fly.) It might be interesting to give 1984 another read.
- notadev 4y ago
  I know it’s from 1984, but it’s considered a word itself as far as I can tell. I was using it as “Deliberately ambiguous and contradictory language used to mislead and manipulate the public.” Heterosexuality is the norm, it is the default. Heteronormativity is some nonsense phrase that is used in place of “normal” to try and draw a false equivalency between normal and abnormal. It is intended to muddy the waters and mislead like most contemporary “woke” language.
  - maxbond 4y ago

kayodelycaon 4y ago

It’s pretty simple. I grew up with the social expectation I would be some special attraction to girls beyond friendship. There were some people shamefully attracted to boys. I’m neither of these. I’ve never experienced sexual attraction to anyone. Every relationship I have is happily platonic. I have several good, close friends, so I capable of deep emotional bonds to people of any gender. This would have been fine if I didn’t have a high sex drive. But I do. You’re not supposed to have a high sex drive while being completely uninterested. I’ve wondered most of my life why I was broken. It was extremely isolating to be constantly surrounded by messages telling me there is something wrong with me. Then I found out what asexuality is. That’s what I am. Romantic attraction can be completely devoid of sexual attraction. Someone’s sex drive can be independent of a person’s sexuality. It hasn’t been any less isolating, but at least I know there is nothing wrong with me as a person.

efkiel 4y ago

heteronormativity include sexual behavior, but mostly contains other behavior. Like the way you dress, talk or present yourself, the activities or kind of play you do or like. Parent comment is mostly talking about non-sexual heteronormativity, which is often presented as the norm. An obvious example would be an adult insisting that pink is for girl and blue for boys, and shaming a kid for liking what's not the (hetero-)norm.

simiones 4y ago

Have you never asked or seen others ask your boy(s) what girl(s) they prefer at school, or vice versa? Have you never seen anyone upset if their boys are playing with dolls or their girls are playing with toy swords? How do you think most parents would react if someone bought a pink dress as a present for for their 6 month old boy, or blue pants for their 6 month old girl? How would most parents react even today to a children's cartoon featuring two little boys holding hands and kissing on the cheek, or a story about prince charming saving and marrying another prince charming? Pretending heteronormativity is just some sex related thing that no one actually talks about is absurd.

ryanbrunner 4y ago

How many Disney movies has your child watched? Heteronormativity is 100% prevalent in nearly all media. You don't even have to single out Disney, 99% of popular media will present heterosexual relationships as the norm, and children's media that shows something as benign as a same sex couple holding hands or hugging is viewed as mildly transgressive or at least newsworthy. Gender non-comforming behaviour is 100% absent outside of maybe a "tomboy" female character (and even that seems less present than it used to be).

jasonlotito 4y ago

Heteronormativity isn’t sexualizing anything. The only person talking about sexualizing children is you. The voting on your comment is crazy because your ignorance on the topic is showing and it’s dangerous and insulting. Educate yourself.

dahfizz 4y ago
Read bognition's comment. They literally say that kids are "empowered to explore their sexuality".
- maxbond 4y ago
  This is incorrect, as you and I discuss here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879888
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  This comment is a lie. They literally do not say "kids are empowered to explore their sexuality." Kids grow up into adults. xd is the one that brought up sexualizing children. No reasonable person here would assume anyone is talking about sexualizing children unless they explicitly said as much. Somehow you and xd are thinking "people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality" explicitly means "kids" in this context. Why you are thinking that, I don't know.
  - xd 4y ago
    "For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality." He talks about society putting pressure on kids to be straight and then talks about people and sexuality in the same damn paragraph; are you being purposefully obtuse?

iwillbenice 4y ago

acdha 4y ago

I think the downvotes are coming because you’re insisting on treating this as a question of sexualization. Gender is distinct and it’s reinforced early on - my son is 5 and most of his classmates have had things like “pink and skirts and dolls are for girls”, “trucks and blue and guns are for boys” established as the norm for years. That’s not perfectly reliable - we know more sparkly princesses who climb trees and drive race cars than I did at his age - but it’s _everywhere_, and the religious conservatives who call any acknowledgment of LGBTQ people “grooming” would 100% be locking and loading if even 10% of that reinforcement energy was going into LGBTQ acceptance. Also note that none of this is about having sex: it’s about telling kids which archetypes are available for them as grownups. If we want to talk about sex, however, look at the degree to which girl’s clothing mimics the styles of adult women even at the expense of practicality for the things kids actually do and how many stories even for young children revolve around the major life goal being an exclusive relationship with a man. Again, the stuff people are complaining about now is an order of magnitude less than what kids are already getting to reinforce traditional gender norms.

Broken_Hippo 4y ago

I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality I definitely learned before age 13 that being gay/lesbian was bad (I'm bisexual and in my mid 40s). I definitely learned that I was expected to grow up and get married and have kids and if I worked, it was really to help the spouse. I remember my parents suddenly getting upset that I had male friends and didn't want me spending time with them the same way (this was around age 10). No one talked to me about attraction and if they did, never explained that I might feel that way about women as well as men. This is what heteronormativity is. This is pushing sexual preferences on youth. Exploring sexuality isn't about actual sex acts, but more about learning who you are and who you are attracted to. You know, the sorts of folks you'd like to date and eventually, the sorts of folks you want to spend your life with. This sort of thing is most definitely encouraged, but sometimes the only acceptable option presented is the hetronormativity - you know, "biblical" monogamous relationships that produce children, and if you are female and don't want children, you are broken. This isn't sexualisation of children.