4 ms·

What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea tha

What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea that you can learn to want to be another gender.

funcDropShadow 4y ago
And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.
- Macha 4y ago
  Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and piercings too
  - smeej 4y ago
    There's still a significant ave gap between these two populations, though. Tattoos and piercings can be obtained by 16-18yos without parental consent, but to be effective, puberty blockers need to start near or before the beginning of puberty, when children are usually 10-14 years old. We may not be talking about many years by raw count, but as a percentage of the total lifespan of those involved, the first group is ~50% older than the second.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    The use of puberty blockers to delay the normal onset of puberty is experimental and there is plenty of evidence that it has irreversible and serious, often tragic, effects: https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jac5.1691 https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.100...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - aliqot 4y ago
    puberty blockers are not non permanent, thats just the acute effects.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - joenot443 4y ago
    Puberty blockers being non-permanent is a misconception, it’s rather concerning seeing it presented otherwise.
  - monodeldiablo 4y ago
    I find it very concerning that anyone would attempt to present puberty blockers as "non-permanent". Extraordinary claims like that require extraordinary evidence.
simiones 4y ago
I don't think that happens too often. The problem is that there are at least two different and often opposing currents in pro-trans movements. One is from the "gender is a social construct" post-modernist side, which views the very idea that people are either men or women with some suspicion, and leads to concepts such as gender fluidity, non-binary identities, and the idea that maybe young kids should not be gendered at all unless and until they chose to assume some gender. The other current is much more conservative, and starts with the simple observation that some people experience extreme gender dysphoria that has only successfully been cured (or at least alleviated) by gender-affirming care (from gender expression to hormone treatments to top/bottom surgery to facial feminization/masculinization surgery and beyond). This current considers it much more clear that humans are generally either men or women, with relatively clear associated characteristics, and simply considers that some people happen to have the "wrong" characteristics. Rather than investigating the philosophical reasoning of why this might be happening and what it means for the concepts woman/man, it is much more concerned with the practical problem of how to make life better for people who feel like this. My impression is that the second group is much much more prevalent, but also seen as problematic by the first group. The first group is much more extreme, and has much more "interesting" talking points, so it is significantly over-represented in online discussions and media.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Kye 4y ago
  Then there's the third one that sees that there probably is some biological aspect, but the way it's expressed depends on the culture's concept of gender. I favor this one since it provides an explanation for the existence of trans people of some sort in every society throughout history without discounting nature or nurture.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  The question of how many people happen to genuinely be in the liminal space between male and female gender expression is very much an empirical matter, not about philosophy. In the real world, seemingly clear-cut binary distinctions and fuzzy, mysterious liminal phenomena are not opposed to one another; they can very much coexist.
ReactiveJelly 4y ago
The trouble is, the Internet is bathroom stall graffiti. If I say "For me it's a choice" then it undermines the people for whom it is not a choice. Because most of the audience in the bathroom stall aren't doing research to put together a comprehensive understanding of gender, they're just reading what in front of them for that day, and then leaving. If I say gender can be learned, we can spend days bickering about what "learned" really means. It's not fun. And I'm sorry that someone else said something you think is contradictory.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  People have been saying "it's just the Internet" since 2007 or whenever Tumblr appeared. It's a tired defense. Such treatment of gender that makes people feel good but only makes sense on the superficial level permeates modern discourse and invades institutional structures deeper each day. You cannot keep the society well-functioning by treating the law and social norms as a bathroom stall or as something that you should mindlessly follow without comprehensive understanding.
MontyCarloHall 4y ago
You’ve nicely explained why trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs) exist. Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. The reality is more nuanced—while certain gender roles are purely social constructs, other aspects of gender are hardwired.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. That's not true. It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an unavoidable part of someone's nature. It does lead to very different policy proposals though: if gender dysphoria is socially caused then it makes sense to prioritise minimising the cause (by widening the scope of acceptable gender expression for each gender) rather than treating the symptom (by allowing people to change their recognised gender).
  - MontyCarloHall 4y ago
    >It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an unavoidable part of someone's nature. It seems unlikely to me that social norms alone could cause gender dysphoric people to believe so strongly that their gender identity mismatches their biological sex (i.e. physical body) that they are willing to undergo dramatic, irreversible medical procedures like gender reassignment surgery and other transitioning procedures to rectify the mismatch. There are plenty of people who strongly defy gender norms yet still strongly identify their gender as being concordant with their biological sex. Gender dysphoria goes far beyond mere nonconformity to gender norms; many trans people explicitly say that they feel like they were born into the wrong body.
    - 4y ago
GaryNumanVevo 4y ago
It's less "learning to be another gender" but more being in a society that allows an individual to express their gender as something other than their sex.

funcDropShadow 4y ago

And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.

Macha 4y ago
Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and piercings too
- smeej 4y ago
  There's still a significant ave gap between these two populations, though. Tattoos and piercings can be obtained by 16-18yos without parental consent, but to be effective, puberty blockers need to start near or before the beginning of puberty, when children are usually 10-14 years old. We may not be talking about many years by raw count, but as a percentage of the total lifespan of those involved, the first group is ~50% older than the second.
- leephillips 4y ago
  The use of puberty blockers to delay the normal onset of puberty is experimental and there is plenty of evidence that it has irreversible and serious, often tragic, effects: https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jac5.1691 https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.100...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- aliqot 4y ago
  puberty blockers are not non permanent, thats just the acute effects.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- joenot443 4y ago
  Puberty blockers being non-permanent is a misconception, it’s rather concerning seeing it presented otherwise.
- monodeldiablo 4y ago
  I find it very concerning that anyone would attempt to present puberty blockers as "non-permanent". Extraordinary claims like that require extraordinary evidence.

simiones 4y ago

I don't think that happens too often. The problem is that there are at least two different and often opposing currents in pro-trans movements. One is from the "gender is a social construct" post-modernist side, which views the very idea that people are either men or women with some suspicion, and leads to concepts such as gender fluidity, non-binary identities, and the idea that maybe young kids should not be gendered at all unless and until they chose to assume some gender. The other current is much more conservative, and starts with the simple observation that some people experience extreme gender dysphoria that has only successfully been cured (or at least alleviated) by gender-affirming care (from gender expression to hormone treatments to top/bottom surgery to facial feminization/masculinization surgery and beyond). This current considers it much more clear that humans are generally either men or women, with relatively clear associated characteristics, and simply considers that some people happen to have the "wrong" characteristics. Rather than investigating the philosophical reasoning of why this might be happening and what it means for the concepts woman/man, it is much more concerned with the practical problem of how to make life better for people who feel like this. My impression is that the second group is much much more prevalent, but also seen as problematic by the first group. The first group is much more extreme, and has much more "interesting" talking points, so it is significantly over-represented in online discussions and media.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Kye 4y ago
Then there's the third one that sees that there probably is some biological aspect, but the way it's expressed depends on the culture's concept of gender. I favor this one since it provides an explanation for the existence of trans people of some sort in every society throughout history without discounting nature or nurture.
zozbot234 4y ago
The question of how many people happen to genuinely be in the liminal space between male and female gender expression is very much an empirical matter, not about philosophy. In the real world, seemingly clear-cut binary distinctions and fuzzy, mysterious liminal phenomena are not opposed to one another; they can very much coexist.

ReactiveJelly 4y ago

The trouble is, the Internet is bathroom stall graffiti. If I say "For me it's a choice" then it undermines the people for whom it is not a choice. Because most of the audience in the bathroom stall aren't doing research to put together a comprehensive understanding of gender, they're just reading what in front of them for that day, and then leaving. If I say gender can be learned, we can spend days bickering about what "learned" really means. It's not fun. And I'm sorry that someone else said something you think is contradictory.

LudwigNagasena 4y ago
People have been saying "it's just the Internet" since 2007 or whenever Tumblr appeared. It's a tired defense. Such treatment of gender that makes people feel good but only makes sense on the superficial level permeates modern discourse and invades institutional structures deeper each day. You cannot keep the society well-functioning by treating the law and social norms as a bathroom stall or as something that you should mindlessly follow without comprehensive understanding.

MontyCarloHall 4y ago

You’ve nicely explained why trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs) exist. Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. The reality is more nuanced—while certain gender roles are purely social constructs, other aspects of gender are hardwired.

nicoburns 4y ago
> Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. That's not true. It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an unavoidable part of someone's nature. It does lead to very different policy proposals though: if gender dysphoria is socially caused then it makes sense to prioritise minimising the cause (by widening the scope of acceptable gender expression for each gender) rather than treating the symptom (by allowing people to change their recognised gender).
- MontyCarloHall 4y ago
  >It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an unavoidable part of someone's nature. It seems unlikely to me that social norms alone could cause gender dysphoric people to believe so strongly that their gender identity mismatches their biological sex (i.e. physical body) that they are willing to undergo dramatic, irreversible medical procedures like gender reassignment surgery and other transitioning procedures to rectify the mismatch. There are plenty of people who strongly defy gender norms yet still strongly identify their gender as being concordant with their biological sex. Gender dysphoria goes far beyond mere nonconformity to gender norms; many trans people explicitly say that they feel like they were born into the wrong body.
  - 4y ago

GaryNumanVevo 4y ago

It's less "learning to be another gender" but more being in a society that allows an individual to express their gender as something other than their sex.