4 ms·

Since there is a school of thought that gender to a great extent is socially learned behaviour the idea that you by learning more about gender transgression wou

by mnsc 4y ago

Since there is a school of thought that gender to a great extent is socially learned behaviour the idea that you by learning more about gender transgression would "create" a desire that "I would be more comfortable in 'that gender' over there" is not far-fetched although I'm not aware of any research. The issue is mostly by those who pathologize that state of not being comfortable in ones "gender assigned at birth", like saying "...other illnesses such as gender dysphoria" and then wanting to "cure" this dysphoria in other ways than enabling a safe and informed transition. Like for instance banning people talking about their experiences, good and bad, in transitioning.

DSingularity 4y ago
How can there ever be an informed transition with something like shifting genders?
- jackmott42 4y ago
  If you suppose that understanding this well is not possible, that would imply you also do not understand it well, so perhaps you should leave other people alone to do what they will, unless some good reason is revealed not to.
  - DSingularity 4y ago
    Agreed — until it starts to harm people. Some are suggesting that this is creating harm for minors.
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  You can practice presenting differently in safe social situations, that's reversible. (e.g. crossdressing) Trans fem people can remove their facial hair without doing other medical transition steps. The effects of hormone replacement are so slow that you can safely "try them out" for a month or two and not have a huge permanent burden. You talk to people and think about it real hard and sleep on it for years. It looks sudden from the outside because there's such a stigma over saying "Hey I'm thinking about trying on a new gender, do you think it would work?" It's not too different from other body modification like tattoos or vasectomies. You can't fully know for sure, but there is a point where you decide that the risk is worth it, because the potential payoff seems worth it. Then it usually turns out it is. Most "de-transition" cases are people who couldn't afford the monetary cost or social cost of presenting as transgender. It's un-common to transition and then find out you're actually cis.
  - DSingularity 4y ago
    What is cis? This makes sense except the part about the slow acting hormones. If they are slow acting then one wouldn’t know their effects until later. How much later? And is it guaranteed that they will be reversible at that point? Modulo what is above, in summary: you are saying there can be informed decisions because the teenagers can: - try out cross dressing - try out the hormone therapy to some point before it has non-reversible long term consequences
vinegarden 4y ago
Your comment reminds me of a very interesting interview with Dr Az Hakeem, a psychiatrist and psychotherapist who set up group therapy sessions for gender dysphoric patients: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5ycqNoareUT6Y6s85LrJSF https://open.spotify.com/episode/5ycqNoareUT6Y6s85LrJSF He would include in these groups people at all stages in their transitions, so those considering transitioning further could be informed and challenged by those who had gone the whole way with surgery and all.
- mnsc 4y ago
  I will pass on your podcast because I found this: https://thepinknews.com/2022/05/22/conversion-therapy-trans-general-medical-council-harley-street-az-hakeem/ https://thepinknews.com/2022/05/22/conversion-therapy-trans-... First. Hakeem [...] describes himself as a “gender critical psychiatrist” Then the "sell" Hakeem offers “specialist psychotherapy for gender dysphoria”, and says that he “does not try and persuade or dissuade anyone from pursuing physical sex interventions such as hormones or surgery but his role is to provide a neutral exploration space to think about sex and gender”. Then the reality “He made it clear from the very start that he was sceptical of my gender and expressed doubt that it could differ to [my] sex,” So a great example of someone pathologizing trans people and not taking them seriously. I hope that was what you wanted to shed light on! Thanks!
  - vinegarden 4y ago
    Sounds like he asked some mildly probing questions that challenged the patient's self-beliefs, and Pink News have decided to spin this as being "conversion therapy". Indeed, it's quite telling that the GMC, who have condemned actual conversion therapy, didn't accept the complaint against Dr Hakeem: https://sex-matters.org/posts/healthcare/conversion-therapy-or-just-therapy https://sex-matters.org/posts/healthcare/conversion-therapy-.... Note also that Pink News' general editorial stance is that unconditional affirmation is the only valid approach, so it's not much surprise they jumped on this story. I would still recommend giving that podcast a listen, it gives a much richer insight into Dr Hakeem's work than that article.

by mnsc 4y ago

DSingularity 4y ago

How can there ever be an informed transition with something like shifting genders?

jackmott42 4y ago
If you suppose that understanding this well is not possible, that would imply you also do not understand it well, so perhaps you should leave other people alone to do what they will, unless some good reason is revealed not to.
- DSingularity 4y ago
  Agreed — until it starts to harm people. Some are suggesting that this is creating harm for minors.
ReactiveJelly 4y ago
You can practice presenting differently in safe social situations, that's reversible. (e.g. crossdressing) Trans fem people can remove their facial hair without doing other medical transition steps. The effects of hormone replacement are so slow that you can safely "try them out" for a month or two and not have a huge permanent burden. You talk to people and think about it real hard and sleep on it for years. It looks sudden from the outside because there's such a stigma over saying "Hey I'm thinking about trying on a new gender, do you think it would work?" It's not too different from other body modification like tattoos or vasectomies. You can't fully know for sure, but there is a point where you decide that the risk is worth it, because the potential payoff seems worth it. Then it usually turns out it is. Most "de-transition" cases are people who couldn't afford the monetary cost or social cost of presenting as transgender. It's un-common to transition and then find out you're actually cis.
- DSingularity 4y ago
  What is cis? This makes sense except the part about the slow acting hormones. If they are slow acting then one wouldn’t know their effects until later. How much later? And is it guaranteed that they will be reversible at that point? Modulo what is above, in summary: you are saying there can be informed decisions because the teenagers can: - try out cross dressing - try out the hormone therapy to some point before it has non-reversible long term consequences

vinegarden 4y ago

Your comment reminds me of a very interesting interview with Dr Az Hakeem, a psychiatrist and psychotherapist who set up group therapy sessions for gender dysphoric patients: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5ycqNoareUT6Y6s85LrJSF https://open.spotify.com/episode/5ycqNoareUT6Y6s85LrJSF He would include in these groups people at all stages in their transitions, so those considering transitioning further could be informed and challenged by those who had gone the whole way with surgery and all.

mnsc 4y ago
I will pass on your podcast because I found this: https://thepinknews.com/2022/05/22/conversion-therapy-trans-general-medical-council-harley-street-az-hakeem/ https://thepinknews.com/2022/05/22/conversion-therapy-trans-... First. Hakeem [...] describes himself as a “gender critical psychiatrist” Then the "sell" Hakeem offers “specialist psychotherapy for gender dysphoria”, and says that he “does not try and persuade or dissuade anyone from pursuing physical sex interventions such as hormones or surgery but his role is to provide a neutral exploration space to think about sex and gender”. Then the reality “He made it clear from the very start that he was sceptical of my gender and expressed doubt that it could differ to [my] sex,” So a great example of someone pathologizing trans people and not taking them seriously. I hope that was what you wanted to shed light on! Thanks!
- vinegarden 4y ago
  Sounds like he asked some mildly probing questions that challenged the patient's self-beliefs, and Pink News have decided to spin this as being "conversion therapy". Indeed, it's quite telling that the GMC, who have condemned actual conversion therapy, didn't accept the complaint against Dr Hakeem: https://sex-matters.org/posts/healthcare/conversion-therapy-or-just-therapy https://sex-matters.org/posts/healthcare/conversion-therapy-.... Note also that Pink News' general editorial stance is that unconditional affirmation is the only valid approach, so it's not much surprise they jumped on this story. I would still recommend giving that podcast a listen, it gives a much richer insight into Dr Hakeem's work than that article.