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I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-O

I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria," which has been debunked. Gender identity is not a socially transmitted pathology. I don't believe you meant this in a hateful way, but let me explain what the problem is with this idea. This is sophistry about how LGBTQ people should remain in the closet, or they'll "infect" people, and the evidence is that as we tolerate LGBTQ people more, more of them come out of the closet. It's a reversal of cause and effect, from the same school as "discussing the history of racism is racist".

gadders 4y ago
Debunked by whom? Happy to read a paper or two. I don't think at all that LGBTQ people "infect" people - that is your choice of words, not mine. But it seems strange to think that tourettes, anorexia, self-harming and even suicide can be socially transmitted but for this one specific condition (for which there is no medical test) it's impossible and has never happened.
- maxbond 4y ago
  I understand these are not the words you used, or necessarily ideas you hold; what I am describing is the role it plays in the wider rhetorical space. I should have made that more clear, it does look like I was calling you out for that. I'll see if I can edit it in a better way. Recommending literature is a skill I am still working on; I know things about this or that, but I didn't keep a record of how I learned them, and it's been months or years now. The Wikipedia article has discussion of criticism which may be a good place to start. If you're interested in YouTube videos, there is a large community of trans people who discuss their experiences in the form of video essays. ContraPoints and Philosophy Tube are some of the best known; you may or may not appreciate their politics, that's not what I'm suggesting, but they have a lot of content about what it's like to be a trans person, why they're trans, how they became trans, etc. that's just very difficult information to come by any other way. I appreciate your good faith and curious engagement with me.
  - Kye 4y ago
    It's honestly enough to remember and point out the whole concept is based on a study that only polled parents who aren't supportive of their trans kids. Anyone with a shred of genuine interest in being fair and accurate should be able to see right through the study. It's so bad that even prominent transphobes don't seem to talk about it anymore.
    - vinegarden 4y ago
      ROGD is the term given to the phenomenon of teenagers with no history of gender dysphoria suddenly announcing a transgender identity, typically after spending massive amounts of time online, and often after a friend has announced that they are trans. Who would be better placed to notice this set of circumstances than their parents?
      - Kye 4y ago
        No, it's a term invented by a deeply flawed and thoroughly discredited study. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_controversy#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_c... >> "The term "rapid-onset gender dysphoria", coined by Littman, first appeared in a July 2016 notice that was posted on four websites, recruiting parents to respond to a research survey that Littman described as "Rapid onset gender dysphoria, social media, and peer groups".[27] In the title of Littman's poster abstract for the study, published in February 2017, the phrase appeared as "Rapid Onset of Gender Dysphoria".[28]" It's not a thing. What is a thing is kids finding language to describe what they experience. Expanding vocabulary and ability to communicate is normally lauded and praised.
        vinegarden 4y ago
        Littman's study hasn't been discredited though. It's been robustly critiqued, as one would expect for any research that advances a novel hypothesis. The main issue that people have with her study is that it challenges the often deeply held belief that a person's gender identity is innate; it hypothesises that there is a population of trans-identifying people who have adopted this identity via sociogenic means. By doing so, it calls into question the affirmation-only clinical approach that has been so ascendant in recent years. Challenging people's fundamental beliefs and practices on a topic is never going to be popular amongst those who hold such beliefs. This is why her research received such an intense backlash, and why activists are so keen to claim that it's been debunked and discredited, even when it hasn't.
throwaway27727 4y ago
> which has been debunked That is, unfortunately, not an argument. To apply your line of thinking to the OP, would you say that "children displaying Tourette's symptoms from watching a YouTuber is a reversal of cause and effect"? The OP does not make that conclusion, and most of this comment section accepts that as well. I, like GP, would be interested to hear how this would be reconciled.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Highlighting a comment that does a better job: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879534 This is a valid criticism. What you have highlighted is a shortcoming in my ability to elucidate this topic. My comment is more an invitation to explore the argument yourself. This isn't a formal debate where I've shown up prepared with notes, I didn't know I'd be speaking about this topic today. If I tell you what I know, you can think about whether it makes sense to you, and you can use extract search terms to research and learn more. You don't have to take my word for anything, but I don't have to remember how I learned something to participate in a casual forum conversation either. That being said, I am starting to make an effort to catalog resources and be able to share them, because I do think it makes my comments better, but this is a work in progress. C'est la vie. As to how this argument relates to the Tourettes-like symptoms discussed in the article, these are simply different phenomena. It's reasonable to observe this phenomenon and ask, "Does this apply to other phenomena?", and in the case of the increasing number of open trans people in our society, I'm telling you the answer is "no" and doing my best to explain why.
mcv 4y ago
This is an issue I'm somewhat concerned about. Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people, and has helped people from depression, possibly suicidal, to a much happier state, and that's great. It's vital we don't lose that. At the same time, it's been politicised; there's a lot of conservative pushback claiming this isn't real, leading to resistance against this pushback, where I wonder if some people may sympathise with transgender people to the point that they also identify as transgender despite a lack of gender dysphoria, and that might create a fad that might cause more people to transition and later regret it. Gender dysphoria is a serious medical issue, and should not be a fad or a cultural or political issue. Transitioning is effective treatment, and not some fun thing to do like getting a tattoo, nor should it be considered an assault on anyone's cultural, religious or political beliefs. And if it really is happening more to girls than boys, maybe consider if cultural sexism might cause some women to not want to identify as such anymore. Especially in the face of issues like rape, bodily autonomy, but also acceptable jobs and behaviours. Maybe we should be more tolerant of cross-dressing.
- aliqot 4y ago
  its much more important to young girls to be accepted socially than it is to boys.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing To be clear, the pain someone is feeling is real but the "reality" of a condition is a bit of an unclear concept. We can't really address this until we try to control for the gendered expectations of the sufferer, their surroundings, and any observers. Suzie Green of Mermaids has said that some of their motivation in transing their son as a toddler was his father's discomfort with some of the toys he was playing with and the homosexual connotations. Likely if the boy had tolerant and unbiased parents he'd be happy as a man, and thus it's unlikely he truly had "gender dysphoria" unless you count whatever his parents conditioned into him. > and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people Again, hard to say given that the decision probably was not made in isolation from heavily gendered expectations. There's reason to think that removing those expectations would have made them at least as happy, if not more. > Transitioning is [...] treatment, and not [...] an assault on anyone's cultural, religious or political beliefs. For an adult it's a personal choice and we should have pretty wide latitude in things that only impact us. It becomes a societal and political issue when it's brought into schools, or when males are given access to women's spaces and opportunities. > And if it really is happening more to girls than boys, maybe consider if cultural sexism might cause some women to not want to identify as such anymore. Especially in the face of issues like rape, bodily autonomy, but also acceptable jobs and behaviours. Maybe we should be more tolerant of cross-dressing. Errr, that's the wrong takeaway. If a woman wasn't going to get promoted then her putting on pants won't help, and if she was going to get abused it wouldn't trick her attacker. We should work to remove or mitigate those problems so she doesn't feel the need to hide her true self. If a woman is thought to be able to avoid rape by dressing like a man and/or having surgeries to reduce her sexual attractiveness then women will be thought to be asking for it ("How was she dressed? Did she still have her breasts?") for not doing those things.
joenot443 4y ago
Has ROGD been absolutely debunked? Last I checked it was still pretty debated, I see discussions about it all the time still. When I search for papers I see the original [1], criticisms [2], and a correction issued by the original authors [3] which holds to most of their starting claims. Obviously being cis and childless I don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that there's still a fair amount of disagreement in the field, and the ROGD's existence or non-existence isn't really settled. The result found by the original paper may be unpopular, but it's bad science to hide it away solely for that reason. [1] https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001.pdf https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001... [2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0038026120934693 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/003802612093469... [3] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0214157 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

gadders 4y ago

Debunked by whom? Happy to read a paper or two. I don't think at all that LGBTQ people "infect" people - that is your choice of words, not mine. But it seems strange to think that tourettes, anorexia, self-harming and even suicide can be socially transmitted but for this one specific condition (for which there is no medical test) it's impossible and has never happened.

maxbond 4y ago
I understand these are not the words you used, or necessarily ideas you hold; what I am describing is the role it plays in the wider rhetorical space. I should have made that more clear, it does look like I was calling you out for that. I'll see if I can edit it in a better way. Recommending literature is a skill I am still working on; I know things about this or that, but I didn't keep a record of how I learned them, and it's been months or years now. The Wikipedia article has discussion of criticism which may be a good place to start. If you're interested in YouTube videos, there is a large community of trans people who discuss their experiences in the form of video essays. ContraPoints and Philosophy Tube are some of the best known; you may or may not appreciate their politics, that's not what I'm suggesting, but they have a lot of content about what it's like to be a trans person, why they're trans, how they became trans, etc. that's just very difficult information to come by any other way. I appreciate your good faith and curious engagement with me.
- Kye 4y ago
  It's honestly enough to remember and point out the whole concept is based on a study that only polled parents who aren't supportive of their trans kids. Anyone with a shred of genuine interest in being fair and accurate should be able to see right through the study. It's so bad that even prominent transphobes don't seem to talk about it anymore.
  - vinegarden 4y ago
    ROGD is the term given to the phenomenon of teenagers with no history of gender dysphoria suddenly announcing a transgender identity, typically after spending massive amounts of time online, and often after a friend has announced that they are trans. Who would be better placed to notice this set of circumstances than their parents?
    - Kye 4y ago
      No, it's a term invented by a deeply flawed and thoroughly discredited study. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_controversy#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_c... >> "The term "rapid-onset gender dysphoria", coined by Littman, first appeared in a July 2016 notice that was posted on four websites, recruiting parents to respond to a research survey that Littman described as "Rapid onset gender dysphoria, social media, and peer groups".[27] In the title of Littman's poster abstract for the study, published in February 2017, the phrase appeared as "Rapid Onset of Gender Dysphoria".[28]" It's not a thing. What is a thing is kids finding language to describe what they experience. Expanding vocabulary and ability to communicate is normally lauded and praised.
      - vinegarden 4y ago
        Littman's study hasn't been discredited though. It's been robustly critiqued, as one would expect for any research that advances a novel hypothesis. The main issue that people have with her study is that it challenges the often deeply held belief that a person's gender identity is innate; it hypothesises that there is a population of trans-identifying people who have adopted this identity via sociogenic means. By doing so, it calls into question the affirmation-only clinical approach that has been so ascendant in recent years. Challenging people's fundamental beliefs and practices on a topic is never going to be popular amongst those who hold such beliefs. This is why her research received such an intense backlash, and why activists are so keen to claim that it's been debunked and discredited, even when it hasn't.

throwaway27727 4y ago

> which has been debunked That is, unfortunately, not an argument. To apply your line of thinking to the OP, would you say that "children displaying Tourette's symptoms from watching a YouTuber is a reversal of cause and effect"? The OP does not make that conclusion, and most of this comment section accepts that as well. I, like GP, would be interested to hear how this would be reconciled.

maxbond 4y ago
Highlighting a comment that does a better job: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879534 This is a valid criticism. What you have highlighted is a shortcoming in my ability to elucidate this topic. My comment is more an invitation to explore the argument yourself. This isn't a formal debate where I've shown up prepared with notes, I didn't know I'd be speaking about this topic today. If I tell you what I know, you can think about whether it makes sense to you, and you can use extract search terms to research and learn more. You don't have to take my word for anything, but I don't have to remember how I learned something to participate in a casual forum conversation either. That being said, I am starting to make an effort to catalog resources and be able to share them, because I do think it makes my comments better, but this is a work in progress. C'est la vie. As to how this argument relates to the Tourettes-like symptoms discussed in the article, these are simply different phenomena. It's reasonable to observe this phenomenon and ask, "Does this apply to other phenomena?", and in the case of the increasing number of open trans people in our society, I'm telling you the answer is "no" and doing my best to explain why.

mcv 4y ago

This is an issue I'm somewhat concerned about. Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people, and has helped people from depression, possibly suicidal, to a much happier state, and that's great. It's vital we don't lose that. At the same time, it's been politicised; there's a lot of conservative pushback claiming this isn't real, leading to resistance against this pushback, where I wonder if some people may sympathise with transgender people to the point that they also identify as transgender despite a lack of gender dysphoria, and that might create a fad that might cause more people to transition and later regret it. Gender dysphoria is a serious medical issue, and should not be a fad or a cultural or political issue. Transitioning is effective treatment, and not some fun thing to do like getting a tattoo, nor should it be considered an assault on anyone's cultural, religious or political beliefs. And if it really is happening more to girls than boys, maybe consider if cultural sexism might cause some women to not want to identify as such anymore. Especially in the face of issues like rape, bodily autonomy, but also acceptable jobs and behaviours. Maybe we should be more tolerant of cross-dressing.

aliqot 4y ago
its much more important to young girls to be accepted socially than it is to boys.
LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing To be clear, the pain someone is feeling is real but the "reality" of a condition is a bit of an unclear concept. We can't really address this until we try to control for the gendered expectations of the sufferer, their surroundings, and any observers. Suzie Green of Mermaids has said that some of their motivation in transing their son as a toddler was his father's discomfort with some of the toys he was playing with and the homosexual connotations. Likely if the boy had tolerant and unbiased parents he'd be happy as a man, and thus it's unlikely he truly had "gender dysphoria" unless you count whatever his parents conditioned into him. > and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people Again, hard to say given that the decision probably was not made in isolation from heavily gendered expectations. There's reason to think that removing those expectations would have made them at least as happy, if not more. > Transitioning is [...] treatment, and not [...] an assault on anyone's cultural, religious or political beliefs. For an adult it's a personal choice and we should have pretty wide latitude in things that only impact us. It becomes a societal and political issue when it's brought into schools, or when males are given access to women's spaces and opportunities. > And if it really is happening more to girls than boys, maybe consider if cultural sexism might cause some women to not want to identify as such anymore. Especially in the face of issues like rape, bodily autonomy, but also acceptable jobs and behaviours. Maybe we should be more tolerant of cross-dressing. Errr, that's the wrong takeaway. If a woman wasn't going to get promoted then her putting on pants won't help, and if she was going to get abused it wouldn't trick her attacker. We should work to remove or mitigate those problems so she doesn't feel the need to hide her true self. If a woman is thought to be able to avoid rape by dressing like a man and/or having surgeries to reduce her sexual attractiveness then women will be thought to be asking for it ("How was she dressed? Did she still have her breasts?") for not doing those things.

joenot443 4y ago

Has ROGD been absolutely debunked? Last I checked it was still pretty debated, I see discussions about it all the time still. When I search for papers I see the original [1], criticisms [2], and a correction issued by the original authors [3] which holds to most of their starting claims. Obviously being cis and childless I don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that there's still a fair amount of disagreement in the field, and the ROGD's existence or non-existence isn't really settled. The result found by the original paper may be unpopular, but it's bad science to hide it away solely for that reason. [1] https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001.pdf https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001... [2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0038026120934693 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/003802612093469... [3] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0214157 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...