7 ms·

Care to elaborate? As written, your comment can come off as rather ageist/sexist, which is a shame if you meant a specific trend.

Veen 4y ago
I imagine many people have a specific phenomenon in mind which they will avoid mentioning because it's considered impolite and impolitic.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Either it is a real issue, in which case, we should have a discussion about it. Or it is not a real issue, in which case, it is not worth vagueposting about. Taking the most charitable interpretation, this creates cover for dog whistling while not adding to the conversation. The other possibility is that it is dog whistling in order to promote bigotry.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    So either discuss it directly and be a bigot, talk around it and be a bigot, or silence all discussion about it and be a hero.
    - maxbond 4y ago
      There's no heroes and no villains here, but if someone has got something bigoted to say, then they should dispose of their waste or surrender the restroom. It doesn't make it any more or less bigoted to be circumspect, it only makes it difficulty to have a proper discussion. If they believe what they have to say isn't bigoted, they should take courage in their convictions and speak their mind. If they're punished in a way that's unfair, then that's something with bringing to the community's attention. If they don't actually have confidence in their convictions, maybe their ideas need some more time to develop before they're comfortable sharing them (and maybe the reason they're uncomfortable is that there's a problem). I'm not trying to silence anyone, when people vaguepost, clearly there's something on their mind, and I'm inviting them to express it. Do you think that's an unfair position for me to take? What I see is that they did say what was on their mind, we had a substantive discussion, no one got flagged, no one got banned, their comment isn't even gray. The reports of HN being hostile to this discussion are greatly overstated.
gadders 4y ago
Fuck it, I'll take the karma hit. I am of course referring to young girls identifying as male/non-binary. I'm sure some of the cases are genuine, but not all. And I'm not saying these girls aren't troubled or have other things going on that they need help with.
- maxbond 4y ago
  I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria," which has been debunked. Gender identity is not a socially transmitted pathology. I don't believe you meant this in a hateful way, but let me explain what the problem is with this idea. This is sophistry about how LGBTQ people should remain in the closet, or they'll "infect" people, and the evidence is that as we tolerate LGBTQ people more, more of them come out of the closet. It's a reversal of cause and effect, from the same school as "discussing the history of racism is racist".
  - gadders 4y ago
    Debunked by whom? Happy to read a paper or two. I don't think at all that LGBTQ people "infect" people - that is your choice of words, not mine. But it seems strange to think that tourettes, anorexia, self-harming and even suicide can be socially transmitted but for this one specific condition (for which there is no medical test) it's impossible and has never happened.
    - maxbond 4y ago
      I understand these are not the words you used, or necessarily ideas you hold; what I am describing is the role it plays in the wider rhetorical space. I should have made that more clear, it does look like I was calling you out for that. I'll see if I can edit it in a better way. Recommending literature is a skill I am still working on; I know things about this or that, but I didn't keep a record of how I learned them, and it's been months or years now. The Wikipedia article has discussion of criticism which may be a good place to start. If you're interested in YouTube videos, there is a large community of trans people who discuss their experiences in the form of video essays. ContraPoints and Philosophy Tube are some of the best known; you may or may not appreciate their politics, that's not what I'm suggesting, but they have a lot of content about what it's like to be a trans person, why they're trans, how they became trans, etc. that's just very difficult information to come by any other way. I appreciate your good faith and curious engagement with me.

Veen 4y ago

I imagine many people have a specific phenomenon in mind which they will avoid mentioning because it's considered impolite and impolitic.

maxbond 4y ago
Either it is a real issue, in which case, we should have a discussion about it. Or it is not a real issue, in which case, it is not worth vagueposting about. Taking the most charitable interpretation, this creates cover for dog whistling while not adding to the conversation. The other possibility is that it is dog whistling in order to promote bigotry.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  So either discuss it directly and be a bigot, talk around it and be a bigot, or silence all discussion about it and be a hero.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    There's no heroes and no villains here, but if someone has got something bigoted to say, then they should dispose of their waste or surrender the restroom. It doesn't make it any more or less bigoted to be circumspect, it only makes it difficulty to have a proper discussion. If they believe what they have to say isn't bigoted, they should take courage in their convictions and speak their mind. If they're punished in a way that's unfair, then that's something with bringing to the community's attention. If they don't actually have confidence in their convictions, maybe their ideas need some more time to develop before they're comfortable sharing them (and maybe the reason they're uncomfortable is that there's a problem). I'm not trying to silence anyone, when people vaguepost, clearly there's something on their mind, and I'm inviting them to express it. Do you think that's an unfair position for me to take? What I see is that they did say what was on their mind, we had a substantive discussion, no one got flagged, no one got banned, their comment isn't even gray. The reports of HN being hostile to this discussion are greatly overstated.

gadders 4y ago

Fuck it, I'll take the karma hit. I am of course referring to young girls identifying as male/non-binary. I'm sure some of the cases are genuine, but not all. And I'm not saying these girls aren't troubled or have other things going on that they need help with.

maxbond 4y ago
I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria," which has been debunked. Gender identity is not a socially transmitted pathology. I don't believe you meant this in a hateful way, but let me explain what the problem is with this idea. This is sophistry about how LGBTQ people should remain in the closet, or they'll "infect" people, and the evidence is that as we tolerate LGBTQ people more, more of them come out of the closet. It's a reversal of cause and effect, from the same school as "discussing the history of racism is racist".
- gadders 4y ago
  Debunked by whom? Happy to read a paper or two. I don't think at all that LGBTQ people "infect" people - that is your choice of words, not mine. But it seems strange to think that tourettes, anorexia, self-harming and even suicide can be socially transmitted but for this one specific condition (for which there is no medical test) it's impossible and has never happened.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    I understand these are not the words you used, or necessarily ideas you hold; what I am describing is the role it plays in the wider rhetorical space. I should have made that more clear, it does look like I was calling you out for that. I'll see if I can edit it in a better way. Recommending literature is a skill I am still working on; I know things about this or that, but I didn't keep a record of how I learned them, and it's been months or years now. The Wikipedia article has discussion of criticism which may be a good place to start. If you're interested in YouTube videos, there is a large community of trans people who discuss their experiences in the form of video essays. ContraPoints and Philosophy Tube are some of the best known; you may or may not appreciate their politics, that's not what I'm suggesting, but they have a lot of content about what it's like to be a trans person, why they're trans, how they became trans, etc. that's just very difficult information to come by any other way. I appreciate your good faith and curious engagement with me.