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Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recogniti

Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recognition cameras spying on our every move work slightly worse on black people. In this case, a phone is a device that is known to, at minimum, track your location, and now the landlord wants to run their code on it that you have only their word to trust is not nefarious, and can log every entry and exit to your apartment. What % of the population own such a device is utterly irrelevant to whether its use should be mandatory to obtain shelter.

wereallterrrist 4y ago
> The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recognition cameras spying on our every move work slightly worse on black people. Constructing fairly absurd strawmen like this really hurts your ability to convince others.
- pannSun 4y ago
  I've seen more criticism of facial recognition surveillance on the grounds that it is less accurate for some races, than on the grounds that, if it worked perfectly, it would result in a massive loss of freedom, so this is no strawman: https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-discrimination-face-recognition-technology https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-di... https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-discrimination-against-trans-people/ https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-... https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-recognition-surveillance-technology-racist https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-rec... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-racism-protests-police-bias/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-raci... https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bias-facial-recognition https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bi... https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-bias-problem-is-so-hard-to-crack/ https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-... https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-facial-recognition-discriminate-against-people-of-colour-143227 https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-faci... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal-study-confirms-racial-bias-many-facial-recognition-systems-casts-doubt-their-expanding-use/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal... https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-perpetuates-discrimination/ https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-facial-recognition-white-coders-black-people-police https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-fa... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recognition-race-artificial-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recogni... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-dangerous-facial-recognition-technology-that-amplifies-racist-policing/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-... https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it-wrong-how-facial-recognition-led-to-a-false-arrest-in-michig https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it... https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recognition-study-finds-results-biased-race-gender-and-age/2704291001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recogn... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defund-facial-recognition/613771/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defun... But in the interest of accuracy, "only" was hyperbole - there is some criticism on non-discriminatory grounds. It's just overshadowed by concerns on whether the hell we are building will be racist.
  - blueflow 4y ago
    Can you post like, only one link, but one that makes a good point that holds up to scrutiny? I'm not feeling in the mood to search through 20 ad-riddled pages to find something backing up your point. It should be your job picking it out.
    - pannSun 4y ago
      Those are all examples of stories complaining specifically about facial-recognition working worse for some races. The quantity, and prominence of the institutions spouting them, is the point.
      - blueflow 4y ago
        There were also tons of stories decrying internet memes as hate symbols, so "The quantity, and prominence of the institutions spouting them" is not a valid argument. Which data backs up your point?
        pannSun 4y ago
        I think we're misunderstanding each-other. My point is that prominent institutions object to surveillance mostly on grounds of discrimination (and this is reflected in the masses, such as the comment I replied to). So examples of those institutions doing exactly that absolutely backs up my point. My evidence isn't perfect - for that, I'd have to collect an unbiased sample of anti-surveillance stories, and categorize them according to which object to surveillance universally, and which mostly object to only discriminatory surveillance. But the impression I got through casual web browsing is that the latter significantly outnumber the former.
        MockObject 4y ago
        > "The quantity, and prominence of the institutions spouting them" is not a valid argument. It's actually a very solid argument against the charge of having offered a Strawman.
  - 4y ago
MockObject 4y ago
> Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? Increasingly, yes. I have joked for a while now that in the future, the only prosecutable crime will be bigotry. I see less and less consideration of civil principles like speech and privacy.
maratc 4y ago
> Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? Discrimination is one of the evils that the courts have interest, capacity, and power to deal with -- and a history of dealing with. "Surveillance dystopia"? Not so much.
- pannSun 4y ago
  And they were only able to get Capone on tax evasion. Yet we all recognize tax evasion as totally incidental to what he did. And that power of the courts you mention would never have come to pass if discrimination was only criticized via some other, incidental harm, like false advertising in job openings if they forget to mention they don't hire blacks.
  - maratc 4y ago
    I dunno, as long as this app bullshit is hit over its head by the courts, do we really care what road was taken to get there? (As long as Capone is in prison, do we care why?)

wereallterrrist 4y ago

> The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recognition cameras spying on our every move work slightly worse on black people. Constructing fairly absurd strawmen like this really hurts your ability to convince others.

pannSun 4y ago
I've seen more criticism of facial recognition surveillance on the grounds that it is less accurate for some races, than on the grounds that, if it worked perfectly, it would result in a massive loss of freedom, so this is no strawman: https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-discrimination-face-recognition-technology https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-di... https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-discrimination-against-trans-people/ https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-... https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-recognition-surveillance-technology-racist https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-rec... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-racism-protests-police-bias/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-raci... https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bias-facial-recognition https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bi... https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-bias-problem-is-so-hard-to-crack/ https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-... https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-facial-recognition-discriminate-against-people-of-colour-143227 https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-faci... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal-study-confirms-racial-bias-many-facial-recognition-systems-casts-doubt-their-expanding-use/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal... https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-perpetuates-discrimination/ https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-facial-recognition-white-coders-black-people-police https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-fa... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recognition-race-artificial-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recogni... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-dangerous-facial-recognition-technology-that-amplifies-racist-policing/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-... https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it-wrong-how-facial-recognition-led-to-a-false-arrest-in-michig https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it... https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recognition-study-finds-results-biased-race-gender-and-age/2704291001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recogn... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defund-facial-recognition/613771/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defun... But in the interest of accuracy, "only" was hyperbole - there is some criticism on non-discriminatory grounds. It's just overshadowed by concerns on whether the hell we are building will be racist.
- blueflow 4y ago
  Can you post like, only one link, but one that makes a good point that holds up to scrutiny? I'm not feeling in the mood to search through 20 ad-riddled pages to find something backing up your point. It should be your job picking it out.
  - pannSun 4y ago
    Those are all examples of stories complaining specifically about facial-recognition working worse for some races. The quantity, and prominence of the institutions spouting them, is the point.
    - blueflow 4y ago
      There were also tons of stories decrying internet memes as hate symbols, so "The quantity, and prominence of the institutions spouting them" is not a valid argument. Which data backs up your point?
      - pannSun 4y ago
        I think we're misunderstanding each-other. My point is that prominent institutions object to surveillance mostly on grounds of discrimination (and this is reflected in the masses, such as the comment I replied to). So examples of those institutions doing exactly that absolutely backs up my point. My evidence isn't perfect - for that, I'd have to collect an unbiased sample of anti-surveillance stories, and categorize them according to which object to surveillance universally, and which mostly object to only discriminatory surveillance. But the impression I got through casual web browsing is that the latter significantly outnumber the former.
      - MockObject 4y ago
        > "The quantity, and prominence of the institutions spouting them" is not a valid argument. It's actually a very solid argument against the charge of having offered a Strawman.
- 4y ago

MockObject 4y ago

> Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? Increasingly, yes. I have joked for a while now that in the future, the only prosecutable crime will be bigotry. I see less and less consideration of civil principles like speech and privacy.

maratc 4y ago

> Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? Discrimination is one of the evils that the courts have interest, capacity, and power to deal with -- and a history of dealing with. "Surveillance dystopia"? Not so much.

pannSun 4y ago
And they were only able to get Capone on tax evasion. Yet we all recognize tax evasion as totally incidental to what he did. And that power of the courts you mention would never have come to pass if discrimination was only criticized via some other, incidental harm, like false advertising in job openings if they forget to mention they don't hire blacks.
- maratc 4y ago
  I dunno, as long as this app bullshit is hit over its head by the courts, do we really care what road was taken to get there? (As long as Capone is in prison, do we care why?)