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> And since smartphones are ubiquitous, it is not unreasonable that your landlord would choose a technology that requires you to have one. “Almost everybody has

> And since smartphones are ubiquitous, it is not unreasonable that your landlord would choose a technology that requires you to have one. “Almost everybody has a smartphone nowadays,” Mr. Goldberg said. “I don’t think the courts would be sympathetic to that” if you challenged the policy. A technology that ~85% of people possess[1] can be mandatory to live in a building? Feels discriminatory and it seems like a bad opinion from one lawyer. 1 = https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/computer-internet-use.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/computer...

hackernewds 4y ago
my phone is regularly dead, and often the reason I come home early. not to mention, in states of inebriation I cannot function an app
- culi 4y ago
  my phone also sucks and the search can literally take upwards of a minute sometimes. This is a nightmare They replaced the washing machines in the complex I live at recently. The doors don't open unless the app tells it to. One time I forgot to add a sock and had already closed the door. I hadn't paid or selected any options or even paired my phone yet. But the door was locked and I had no choice but to pay in order to get my clothes back. I had to just handwash my sock Just more bs technology meant to keep houseless folks from accessing services.
  - diydsp 4y ago
    If you observe how feed animals are raised, you'll see from the perspective of powerful people "raising" us. The goal is total disempowerment and uniformity while sustaining the powerful.
- chrisbaker98 4y ago
  Yeah that's actually terrifying to think that if my phone runs out of battery (which happens all the time) then I won't be able to get back into my house (or at least doing so will be highly inconvenient.) Or god forbid I want to step outside my house without my phone. I need a phone in my pocket just to take my dog for a walk? Hard pass; I'd never want to live in a place like this.
BlueTemplar 4y ago
Also, I am guessing that if you don't run iOS or Android (how recent ?) on your smartphone, you are out of luck ?
- Markoff 4y ago
  or you have rooted Android without gapps, my case, you can say goodbye to plenty of apps
- jbotdev 4y ago
  I agree requiring a smartphone in general is a bad idea, but realistically 99.9% of smartphones in the US have iOS or Android. Maybe outdated Android, but I think HN sometimes overestimates the prevalence and practically of alternative smartphone OSs (or gapps-free Android).
  - bodge5000 4y ago
    With some very rough maths, 0.1% of the US population is still over 330,000 people, and what, all these people should be excluded from renting (perhaps even buying) a home because they don't use the right phone?
    - jbotdev 4y ago
      My point is if you’re requiring smartphones, realistically you’re only going to target those two OSs. That’s independent of the fact that requiring it to rent an apartment is bad. Pick apart that last 0.1% and it’s mostly end of life devices like Windows/Blackberry.
      - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        And yet a key is truely ubiqitous.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    It's more about : how are competitors are supposed to arise under these conditions ??
causi 4y ago
It's funny because if they tried to replace key locks with fingerprint readers there'd be an immediate lawsuit over accessibility despite far more than 85% of people having usable fingers.
- orangepanda 4y ago
  While I do have mostly usable fingers, fingerprint readers do not like me; my hands are consistently too sweaty
  - aequitas 4y ago
    Also fingerprint readers and indoor rock climbing don't go well together. At a job I had I needed to have my fingerprint reprogrammed every week or so because enough had rubbed off during climbing that it was not similar enough.
  - temp_account_32 4y ago
    I have palmar hyperhidrosis as well. What helps is either clinical strength antiperspirant (something like DriClor) or iontophoresis.
    - causi 4y ago
      DriClor seems to have no effect on me at all. Regular anti-perspirant works better for me.
- tuetuopay 4y ago
  You'd exclude most elderly people whose fingerprints have faded away, or people with hands a bit too moist for the print to register, etc.
- rascul 4y ago
  My fingers get cut, scraped, and burned enough during the course of a typical work week that fingerprint readers just don't work for me in general. My fingers are very usable but my fingerprints can sometimes be unusable.
Markoff 4y ago
according recent Czech statistical bureau data[1] only 81% Czechs over 16 own smartphone, if you count kids the percentage drops even lower, but why should kids after school be able to get into building and apartment, right? [1] https://www.czso.cz/documents/10180/200499059/csu_tk_ict_prezentace.pdf/df67ed84-d795-4d37-b293-2b4994a29e19?version=1.0 https://www.czso.cz/documents/10180/200499059/csu_tk_ict_pre...
- flo123456 4y ago
  I wonder if these keys are a thing in Czech? Or anywhere in Europe for that matter…
  - Markoff 4y ago
    Locking the apartment building exit door is illegal under Czech fire code, in case of fire EVERYONE in the building (which can be also visitors not living there) must be able to open door from inside even without key or anything. That's the law, reality without enforced law is different, so you can easily get stuck in front of the door with fire behind you. https://www.hzscr.cz/clanek/zamykani-vchodovych-dveri-bytovych-domu-ano-ci-ne.aspx https://www.hzscr.cz/clanek/zamykani-vchodovych-dveri-bytovy... As for apps, haven't seen it anywhere, we use chip keys, but almost always there is also standard key lock available.
- paganel 4y ago
  European living further East here, I guess the idea is to copy all the worst traits that are present across the Atlantic. For example not allowing kids under a certain age go outside unaccompanied by adults because the "outside" is a hellish place fraught with dangers. Under that scenario it doesn't really matter that a kid ages 10 or 12 doesn't have a smart-phone or not. Hence why I can see stuff like this insidiously making its way around these parts in a few years' time.
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
> The app often fails when I use it, but I don’t have a key as a backup Also I'm sure a court would be quite sympathetic if the app fails and you can't access the apartment your paying rent for..
pannSun 4y ago
Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recognition cameras spying on our every move work slightly worse on black people. In this case, a phone is a device that is known to, at minimum, track your location, and now the landlord wants to run their code on it that you have only their word to trust is not nefarious, and can log every entry and exit to your apartment. What % of the population own such a device is utterly irrelevant to whether its use should be mandatory to obtain shelter.
- wereallterrrist 4y ago
  > The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recognition cameras spying on our every move work slightly worse on black people. Constructing fairly absurd strawmen like this really hurts your ability to convince others.
  - pannSun 4y ago
    I've seen more criticism of facial recognition surveillance on the grounds that it is less accurate for some races, than on the grounds that, if it worked perfectly, it would result in a massive loss of freedom, so this is no strawman: https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-discrimination-face-recognition-technology https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-di... https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-discrimination-against-trans-people/ https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-... https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-recognition-surveillance-technology-racist https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-rec... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-racism-protests-police-bias/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-raci... https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bias-facial-recognition https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bi... https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-bias-problem-is-so-hard-to-crack/ https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-... https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-facial-recognition-discriminate-against-people-of-colour-143227 https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-faci... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal-study-confirms-racial-bias-many-facial-recognition-systems-casts-doubt-their-expanding-use/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal... https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-perpetuates-discrimination/ https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-facial-recognition-white-coders-black-people-police https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-fa... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recognition-race-artificial-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recogni... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-dangerous-facial-recognition-technology-that-amplifies-racist-policing/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-... https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it-wrong-how-facial-recognition-led-to-a-false-arrest-in-michig https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it... https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recognition-study-finds-results-biased-race-gender-and-age/2704291001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recogn... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defund-facial-recognition/613771/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defun... But in the interest of accuracy, "only" was hyperbole - there is some criticism on non-discriminatory grounds. It's just overshadowed by concerns on whether the hell we are building will be racist.
ryukoposting 4y ago
Not to mention a technology that : 1. costs me hundreds of dollars to replace if it breaks 2. goes through its whole battery in a day or two 3. is rendered inoperable while wearing heavy winter gloves 4. will inevitably force me to agree to giving away PII for free before granting me its services I'll stick with the metal key, thanks.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  > 4. will inevitably force me to agree to giving away PII for free before granting me its services And what if you _don't_ agree? You have a contract signed for your apartment. Can you not access that apartment if you don't agree to the additional terms?

hackernewds 4y ago

my phone is regularly dead, and often the reason I come home early. not to mention, in states of inebriation I cannot function an app

culi 4y ago
my phone also sucks and the search can literally take upwards of a minute sometimes. This is a nightmare They replaced the washing machines in the complex I live at recently. The doors don't open unless the app tells it to. One time I forgot to add a sock and had already closed the door. I hadn't paid or selected any options or even paired my phone yet. But the door was locked and I had no choice but to pay in order to get my clothes back. I had to just handwash my sock Just more bs technology meant to keep houseless folks from accessing services.
- diydsp 4y ago
  If you observe how feed animals are raised, you'll see from the perspective of powerful people "raising" us. The goal is total disempowerment and uniformity while sustaining the powerful.
chrisbaker98 4y ago
Yeah that's actually terrifying to think that if my phone runs out of battery (which happens all the time) then I won't be able to get back into my house (or at least doing so will be highly inconvenient.) Or god forbid I want to step outside my house without my phone. I need a phone in my pocket just to take my dog for a walk? Hard pass; I'd never want to live in a place like this.

BlueTemplar 4y ago

Also, I am guessing that if you don't run iOS or Android (how recent ?) on your smartphone, you are out of luck ?

Markoff 4y ago
or you have rooted Android without gapps, my case, you can say goodbye to plenty of apps
jbotdev 4y ago
I agree requiring a smartphone in general is a bad idea, but realistically 99.9% of smartphones in the US have iOS or Android. Maybe outdated Android, but I think HN sometimes overestimates the prevalence and practically of alternative smartphone OSs (or gapps-free Android).
- bodge5000 4y ago
  With some very rough maths, 0.1% of the US population is still over 330,000 people, and what, all these people should be excluded from renting (perhaps even buying) a home because they don't use the right phone?
  - jbotdev 4y ago
    My point is if you’re requiring smartphones, realistically you’re only going to target those two OSs. That’s independent of the fact that requiring it to rent an apartment is bad. Pick apart that last 0.1% and it’s mostly end of life devices like Windows/Blackberry.
    - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
      And yet a key is truely ubiqitous.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  It's more about : how are competitors are supposed to arise under these conditions ??

causi 4y ago

It's funny because if they tried to replace key locks with fingerprint readers there'd be an immediate lawsuit over accessibility despite far more than 85% of people having usable fingers.

orangepanda 4y ago
While I do have mostly usable fingers, fingerprint readers do not like me; my hands are consistently too sweaty
- aequitas 4y ago
  Also fingerprint readers and indoor rock climbing don't go well together. At a job I had I needed to have my fingerprint reprogrammed every week or so because enough had rubbed off during climbing that it was not similar enough.
- temp_account_32 4y ago
  I have palmar hyperhidrosis as well. What helps is either clinical strength antiperspirant (something like DriClor) or iontophoresis.
  - causi 4y ago
    DriClor seems to have no effect on me at all. Regular anti-perspirant works better for me.
tuetuopay 4y ago
You'd exclude most elderly people whose fingerprints have faded away, or people with hands a bit too moist for the print to register, etc.
rascul 4y ago
My fingers get cut, scraped, and burned enough during the course of a typical work week that fingerprint readers just don't work for me in general. My fingers are very usable but my fingerprints can sometimes be unusable.

Markoff 4y ago

according recent Czech statistical bureau data[1] only 81% Czechs over 16 own smartphone, if you count kids the percentage drops even lower, but why should kids after school be able to get into building and apartment, right? [1] https://www.czso.cz/documents/10180/200499059/csu_tk_ict_prezentace.pdf/df67ed84-d795-4d37-b293-2b4994a29e19?version=1.0 https://www.czso.cz/documents/10180/200499059/csu_tk_ict_pre...

flo123456 4y ago
I wonder if these keys are a thing in Czech? Or anywhere in Europe for that matter…
- Markoff 4y ago
  Locking the apartment building exit door is illegal under Czech fire code, in case of fire EVERYONE in the building (which can be also visitors not living there) must be able to open door from inside even without key or anything. That's the law, reality without enforced law is different, so you can easily get stuck in front of the door with fire behind you. https://www.hzscr.cz/clanek/zamykani-vchodovych-dveri-bytovych-domu-ano-ci-ne.aspx https://www.hzscr.cz/clanek/zamykani-vchodovych-dveri-bytovy... As for apps, haven't seen it anywhere, we use chip keys, but almost always there is also standard key lock available.
paganel 4y ago
European living further East here, I guess the idea is to copy all the worst traits that are present across the Atlantic. For example not allowing kids under a certain age go outside unaccompanied by adults because the "outside" is a hellish place fraught with dangers. Under that scenario it doesn't really matter that a kid ages 10 or 12 doesn't have a smart-phone or not. Hence why I can see stuff like this insidiously making its way around these parts in a few years' time.

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

> The app often fails when I use it, but I don’t have a key as a backup Also I'm sure a court would be quite sympathetic if the app fails and you can't access the apartment your paying rent for..

pannSun 4y ago

Is "discrimination" really the only evil we can think of these days? The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recognition cameras spying on our every move work slightly worse on black people. In this case, a phone is a device that is known to, at minimum, track your location, and now the landlord wants to run their code on it that you have only their word to trust is not nefarious, and can log every entry and exit to your apartment. What % of the population own such a device is utterly irrelevant to whether its use should be mandatory to obtain shelter.

wereallterrrist 4y ago
> The surveillance dystopia we are racing towards is only criticized if the facial recognition cameras spying on our every move work slightly worse on black people. Constructing fairly absurd strawmen like this really hurts your ability to convince others.
- pannSun 4y ago
  I've seen more criticism of facial recognition surveillance on the grounds that it is less accurate for some races, than on the grounds that, if it worked perfectly, it would result in a massive loss of freedom, so this is no strawman: https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-discrimination-face-recognition-technology https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/sciencepolicy/blog/racial-di... https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-discrimination-against-trans-people/ https://theswaddle.com/how-facial-recognition-ai-reinforces-... https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-recognition-surveillance-technology-racist https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-is-face-rec... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-racism-protests-police-bias/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facial-recognition-systems-raci... https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bias-facial-recognition https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/problem-bi... https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-bias-problem-is-so-hard-to-crack/ https://www.cnet.com/science/why-facial-recognitions-racial-... https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-facial-recognition-discriminate-against-people-of-colour-143227 https://theconversation.com/ai-technologies-like-police-faci... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal-study-confirms-racial-bias-many-facial-recognition-systems-casts-doubt-their-expanding-use/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal... https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-perpetuates-discrimination/ https://exposure.org.uk/2021/09/why-facial-recognition-tech-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-facial-recognition-white-coders-black-people-police https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-fa... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recognition-race-artificial-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recogni... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-dangerous-facial-recognition-technology-that-amplifies-racist-policing/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/ban-... https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it-wrong-how-facial-recognition-led-to-a-false-arrest-in-michig https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882683463/the-computer-got-it... https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recognition-study-finds-results-biased-race-gender-and-age/2704291001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/19/facial-recogn... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defund-facial-recognition/613771/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/07/defun... But in the interest of accuracy, "only" was hyperbole - there is some criticism on non-discriminatory grounds. It's just overshadowed by concerns on whether the hell we are building will be racist.

ryukoposting 4y ago

Not to mention a technology that : 1. costs me hundreds of dollars to replace if it breaks 2. goes through its whole battery in a day or two 3. is rendered inoperable while wearing heavy winter gloves 4. will inevitably force me to agree to giving away PII for free before granting me its services I'll stick with the metal key, thanks.

CogitoCogito 4y ago
> 4. will inevitably force me to agree to giving away PII for free before granting me its services And what if you _don't_ agree? You have a contract signed for your apartment. Can you not access that apartment if you don't agree to the additional terms?