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Butterfly seems to be taking over everywhere. I recently moved to a new building, and they're using it, as well as every individual apartment having fob-based l

Butterfly seems to be taking over everywhere. I recently moved to a new building, and they're using it, as well as every individual apartment having fob-based locks on a separate system, without any key backup. We had our first power outage a few weeks ago, and it meant I had no way of locking my door behind me. The person's described problem at least doesn't apply here, though, since the same fob works on the front door. Additionally, the staircases were fobbed to get back in, which meant immediately after getting into the staircase, I had no way of getting back onto my floor. They pretty quickly propped all the doors open, at least, but still seems pretty awful from a trade-off perspective as a tenant. I'm sure it makes the management of keys in general a billion times easier for the building, though.

chrisbolt 4y ago
My building has fob-based locks that are battery powered and work when the power is out, which I know because they recently replaced the batteries. Just another anecdote I wanted to contribute.
- Sebguer 4y ago
  I was honestly expecting mine to be like that, and was pretty annoyed when it was just outright dead.
  - zaroth 4y ago
    This doesn’t make sense… how are they running power to the door lock? I would have guessed that these devices always run on battery don’t they?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      If it’s a commercial building it’s easy enough to run power through a special hinge.
    - michaelt 4y ago
      For buildings with 'heavy duty' entry systems, power to a powered lock can be hooked up through a 'door loop' [1] on the secure side of the door. Or you can put the electronic lock in the frame of the door, as an electromagnet or an electronic strike [2]. The door to a residence, personal office or hotel room might only need to open 10x per day and so can be battery powered - but the main entrance to an office building might open 1000x per day, so wired power is the right choice there. [1] https://doorentrydirect.com/srs-460mm-door-loop-with-cable-protection https://doorentrydirect.com/srs-460mm-door-loop-with-cable-p... [2] https://doorentrydirect.com/alpro-al151-inwardly-opening-electric-rim-strike https://doorentrydirect.com/alpro-al151-inwardly-opening-ele...
- Doxin 4y ago
  A guy I made a website for a looong time ago sold systems like that. The system he sold had some really neat tricks to avoid needing to be connected to a network and the like. The main entrance had the only networked badge system. What it'd do is when you entered the building it'd write an update list to your fob. When you then open any of the non-networked locks they'd grab the update list from your fob. This way things like revoking access to fobs or adding new fobs to the system would get to all the doors pretty quickly without them needing to be connected to wifi or whatnot. Of course this also makes it feasible for the locks to run on batteries for a long time. The next trick the locks did was when you unlock a non-networked door it'd write its battery state to your fob. When next operating a networked lock it'd pass the battery state along to the main database. Hey presto you're getting low battery alerts, and there's still no always-on network slurping battery life. In case of a power outage the reception people could let people in the main door, and all the other locks in the building would keep working as they always have.
GenerocUsername 4y ago
I have a relative who works management at apartments. The digital keys do save a huge amount of trivial resets and lock outs that are otherwise dealt with via manual labor. Seems like it should be mandatory that the doors have either a physical backup (key) or several days of stored power.
- Mandatum 4y ago
  This is really only relevant for buildings with 24/7 supers which are qualified electricians and trained in this particular product. Very large apartment blocks. I'd never choose to buy an apartment in one of these.
  - crooked-v 4y ago
    You don't buy apartments, you rent them.
    - cmcconomy 4y ago
      speak for yourself
    - SapporoChris 4y ago
      https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/flats/london/ https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/flats/london/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/apartment-buying-guide/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/apartment-b... https://tranio.com/usa/ca/apartments/ https://tranio.com/usa/ca/apartments/ Okay, I listed examples in London, Japan and California that clearly indicate that apartments can be purchased.
    - Izkata 4y ago
      This is a distinction I also grew up with, I think it's a regional thing. Pretty sure it grew as something like, "apartment" != "apartment building", where the second is read as "(adjective) (noun)" instead of as a compound noun, and just describes the physical layout of the whole building, while just "apartment" is describing the individual units and has an implied rent-not-buy.
irrational 4y ago
Can’t lock your door when the power is cut? Sounds great for a rapist/robber/murderer. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
- Sebguer 4y ago
  Sorry, to be clear, it can be locked from the inside. The internal lock continues to function just fine. You just can't lock (or unlock) it from the outside.
  - selcuka 4y ago
    That's equally bad. Someone can enter and hide inside your unit while you are away.
    - tartoran 4y ago
      If power goes out when away the door stayed locked. Only if one has to leave their apartment when power is out does the door not lock. Same problem happens when coming home and the power is out, door wont open. Likewise not having access to phone leaves you out of your home. This will most likely be sorted out for this use case but Im generally concerned with this rushed innovation, there’s no fallback to a basic method.
- Larrikin 4y ago
  Door locks for all unit doors (places people live) are all battery based with a fail over of being locked but only to the outside. If you're inside they all open like normal doors. It's extremely obvious months a head of time when the battery is dying and nearly all systems will report this to whatever the unlock system is.The exact system determines if you're simply turning a door handle or switching a dead bolt to leave. There's no possibility of someone sneaking in or you being locked in. Common doors, like to a lobby or a gym can possibly fail to let you inside if there is a power failure but you will never be trapped inside. Those systems are almost always paired with a FOB so you aren't locked out and often times there's a guarantee of a property manager that is on call for emergencies.
walrus01 4y ago
If you want to see something truly scary, from the point of view of an ISP, the number of building management people installing access control system who want a static public IP for them and intend to plug them directly into the internet without any form of firewall or router in between. Same with camera systems! And keyfob systems! And "smart" management devices of all types. They have no clue whatsoever.
- dv_dt 4y ago
  Modernity is making entertainment show hacker over watch tropes true. Hero approaches locked door - over comms, net runner : I’ve almost got it hacked - door pops open. It’s so amazing.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    Literally this. I've worked on some audits that included pretty featureful BMS, and no joke, some of those systems could have given real "mission impossible" capabilities to an intruder. Disable alarms? Disable cameras? Unlock doors? All possible through a web control panel that looked like it belonged in the early 2000's with hard coded, undocumented accounts.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  Hmm, but this has been the norm for customer IPv6 for years now, and the sky has not fallen yet somehow ? Or is it not so much because IPv6 is inherently more secure, but rather because its support is still pretty bad outside of the main computers ? Or because random house appliances are not a particularly interesting target ?
  - selcuka 4y ago
    Well, I agree that NAT is not proper security, but at least it provided a second layer on top of the incompetence of your average IoT developer. The so-called smart devices doesn't follow the standard security protocols anywhere close to computers and mobile devices.
  - 4y ago
entrylevel 4y ago
If they propped all the fire-doors open, the first thing I would have done is called the fire department to report a dangerous situation.
anigbrowl 4y ago
The records of when people use their keys will surely get stolen and/or sold.

chrisbolt 4y ago

My building has fob-based locks that are battery powered and work when the power is out, which I know because they recently replaced the batteries. Just another anecdote I wanted to contribute.

Sebguer 4y ago
I was honestly expecting mine to be like that, and was pretty annoyed when it was just outright dead.
- zaroth 4y ago
  This doesn’t make sense… how are they running power to the door lock? I would have guessed that these devices always run on battery don’t they?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    If it’s a commercial building it’s easy enough to run power through a special hinge.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    For buildings with 'heavy duty' entry systems, power to a powered lock can be hooked up through a 'door loop' [1] on the secure side of the door. Or you can put the electronic lock in the frame of the door, as an electromagnet or an electronic strike [2]. The door to a residence, personal office or hotel room might only need to open 10x per day and so can be battery powered - but the main entrance to an office building might open 1000x per day, so wired power is the right choice there. [1] https://doorentrydirect.com/srs-460mm-door-loop-with-cable-protection https://doorentrydirect.com/srs-460mm-door-loop-with-cable-p... [2] https://doorentrydirect.com/alpro-al151-inwardly-opening-electric-rim-strike https://doorentrydirect.com/alpro-al151-inwardly-opening-ele...
Doxin 4y ago
A guy I made a website for a looong time ago sold systems like that. The system he sold had some really neat tricks to avoid needing to be connected to a network and the like. The main entrance had the only networked badge system. What it'd do is when you entered the building it'd write an update list to your fob. When you then open any of the non-networked locks they'd grab the update list from your fob. This way things like revoking access to fobs or adding new fobs to the system would get to all the doors pretty quickly without them needing to be connected to wifi or whatnot. Of course this also makes it feasible for the locks to run on batteries for a long time. The next trick the locks did was when you unlock a non-networked door it'd write its battery state to your fob. When next operating a networked lock it'd pass the battery state along to the main database. Hey presto you're getting low battery alerts, and there's still no always-on network slurping battery life. In case of a power outage the reception people could let people in the main door, and all the other locks in the building would keep working as they always have.

GenerocUsername 4y ago

I have a relative who works management at apartments. The digital keys do save a huge amount of trivial resets and lock outs that are otherwise dealt with via manual labor. Seems like it should be mandatory that the doors have either a physical backup (key) or several days of stored power.

Mandatum 4y ago
This is really only relevant for buildings with 24/7 supers which are qualified electricians and trained in this particular product. Very large apartment blocks. I'd never choose to buy an apartment in one of these.
- crooked-v 4y ago
  You don't buy apartments, you rent them.
  - cmcconomy 4y ago
    speak for yourself
  - SapporoChris 4y ago
    https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/flats/london/ https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/flats/london/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/apartment-buying-guide/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/apartment-b... https://tranio.com/usa/ca/apartments/ https://tranio.com/usa/ca/apartments/ Okay, I listed examples in London, Japan and California that clearly indicate that apartments can be purchased.
  - Izkata 4y ago
    This is a distinction I also grew up with, I think it's a regional thing. Pretty sure it grew as something like, "apartment" != "apartment building", where the second is read as "(adjective) (noun)" instead of as a compound noun, and just describes the physical layout of the whole building, while just "apartment" is describing the individual units and has an implied rent-not-buy.

irrational 4y ago

Can’t lock your door when the power is cut? Sounds great for a rapist/robber/murderer. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Sebguer 4y ago
Sorry, to be clear, it can be locked from the inside. The internal lock continues to function just fine. You just can't lock (or unlock) it from the outside.
- selcuka 4y ago
  That's equally bad. Someone can enter and hide inside your unit while you are away.
  - tartoran 4y ago
    If power goes out when away the door stayed locked. Only if one has to leave their apartment when power is out does the door not lock. Same problem happens when coming home and the power is out, door wont open. Likewise not having access to phone leaves you out of your home. This will most likely be sorted out for this use case but Im generally concerned with this rushed innovation, there’s no fallback to a basic method.
Larrikin 4y ago
Door locks for all unit doors (places people live) are all battery based with a fail over of being locked but only to the outside. If you're inside they all open like normal doors. It's extremely obvious months a head of time when the battery is dying and nearly all systems will report this to whatever the unlock system is.The exact system determines if you're simply turning a door handle or switching a dead bolt to leave. There's no possibility of someone sneaking in or you being locked in. Common doors, like to a lobby or a gym can possibly fail to let you inside if there is a power failure but you will never be trapped inside. Those systems are almost always paired with a FOB so you aren't locked out and often times there's a guarantee of a property manager that is on call for emergencies.

walrus01 4y ago

If you want to see something truly scary, from the point of view of an ISP, the number of building management people installing access control system who want a static public IP for them and intend to plug them directly into the internet without any form of firewall or router in between. Same with camera systems! And keyfob systems! And "smart" management devices of all types. They have no clue whatsoever.

dv_dt 4y ago
Modernity is making entertainment show hacker over watch tropes true. Hero approaches locked door - over comms, net runner : I’ve almost got it hacked - door pops open. It’s so amazing.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Literally this. I've worked on some audits that included pretty featureful BMS, and no joke, some of those systems could have given real "mission impossible" capabilities to an intruder. Disable alarms? Disable cameras? Unlock doors? All possible through a web control panel that looked like it belonged in the early 2000's with hard coded, undocumented accounts.
BlueTemplar 4y ago
Hmm, but this has been the norm for customer IPv6 for years now, and the sky has not fallen yet somehow ? Or is it not so much because IPv6 is inherently more secure, but rather because its support is still pretty bad outside of the main computers ? Or because random house appliances are not a particularly interesting target ?
- selcuka 4y ago
  Well, I agree that NAT is not proper security, but at least it provided a second layer on top of the incompetence of your average IoT developer. The so-called smart devices doesn't follow the standard security protocols anywhere close to computers and mobile devices.
- 4y ago

entrylevel 4y ago

If they propped all the fire-doors open, the first thing I would have done is called the fire department to report a dangerous situation.

anigbrowl 4y ago

The records of when people use their keys will surely get stolen and/or sold.