3 ms·

> nice to know some incesteral relationship between directors/VPs were able to make a nice pay day. you should read the book.. The industry is rife with this

> nice to know some incesteral relationship between directors/VPs were able to make a nice pay day. you should read the book.. The industry is rife with this type of behaviour. There are always stories about how "senior manager" X is basically a shadow employee. While they work for company "Y" their real job is to send business to the consulting mother ship.

azemetre 4y ago
I think I will now. I can't find the comment now, but there was a similar conspiracy about ex-Amazon Managers being paid to force their new employers to adopt AWS on one of the programming subreddits.
- toyg 4y ago
  There is usually no forcing: they are typically hired because of their AWS knowledge - the business has already decided to go AWS, the new hire is doing what he's expected to do.
throwaway202212 4y ago
This really sounds like a conspiracy theory. That being said, McKinsey (and presumably BCG and Bain) very much embrace their employees leaving to join their clients. It creates a good "referral" network if you will. But more than that, I don't buy it.
- kennend3 4y ago
  I'm obviously not using a throwaway account like you and so i am not willing to disclose details. But lets say that in my industry this sort of "kickback scheme" is well known. I saw it first hand, and have had friends tell me other instances of it as well. And i am NOT singling out "McKinsey" but consultants in general. As for McKinsey, read the book, they provide examples of this.
  - exclusiv 4y ago
    The throwaways are likely shills (or charitably - ignorant employees that don't wish to dive into any claims about their employer?). There are actual cases involving big four and kickbacks/bonuses and corporate sabotage. One example in the last few years: BCG and NCR Corporation. "It is undisputed that Mr. Benjamin, as an officer of NCR, owed NCR a fiduciary duty that includes a duty of loyalty. The Counterclaims allege sufficient facts to show that Mr. Benjamin breached that duty by entering into a secret agreement with BCG to promote and expedite his candidacy for CEO. The Counterclaims further allege sufficient facts to show that BCG worked with Mr. Benjamin to negotiate a one-sided contract, and remove and replace employees who opposed adoption of the contract, and that BCG advocated for Mr. Benjamin’s promotion to CEO in hopes that he would award BCG with a discretionary bonus." [1] [1] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2019cv10156/525729/74/ https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-yor...
    - throwaway202212 4y ago
      I can only obviously speak to my own experience and I did not come across anything like this. There's no love lost between me and my former employer FWIW.
      - kennend3 4y ago
        Previously you said it was a "conspiracy". Someone posted the results of a lawsuit. Because of this, it is now irrefutable that this takes place and this is your response? "I can only speak to my own experience..".. Well.. Have you considered your experience may be severely limited? Perhaps in the future don't be so fast to pull the "conspiracy" card?
        throwaway202212 4y ago
        Apologies, "in my opinion and limited experience" it sounds like a conspiracy theory. I'm not legally literate enough to understand the court opinion you attached. Regardless, of course there will be cases of bad players in any large company - that goes without saying. But its tiresome always hearing the same "McKinsey is the root of all evil and secretly influences governments and companies". The opinion that most engineers have of MBB is often based on conjecture as they typically have only ever hard arms length exposure to such consulting firms. As a software engineer myself, working at both startups and FAANG before McKinsey, I was of the exact same opinion about McKinsey and these types of companies. The truth is much more mundane and boring though.
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  I saw it happen with my own eyes.
- kennend3 4y ago
  PS - as a former McKinsey employee.. Would it be fair to say your view is biased? Look at your response on the "agile" comment. They feel it was "pure graft" and you defended it without knowing any details? Now look at the other response on this thread, where someone stated they saw it first hand as well. Are they in on the "conspiracy theory" as well, or perhaps there is truth to it?
  - throwaway202212 4y ago
    It's fair to say my view would be biased. But probably not in the direction you would think. I think we need to be more critical of what it means to see things "first hand". MBB are typically operating at the executive level and the motivations between executives decisions typically don't reach the "rank and file" of the organization (forgive the wording). In my response I mentioned that the cost of engaging McKinsey is so extremely high that there will need to be some type of rational justification for bringing them in (beyond just covering my ass). That being said, I worked on a few projects where I wasn't sure whether the cost justifies the benefits but this was largely due to incompetence or overselling - never "pure graft".
    - kennend3 4y ago
      > I think we need to be more critical of what it means to see things "first hand". I think everyone needs to be more critical of "Shill" accounts such as yours. You are fast to assume that i did not see it "first hand", slow to realize that this does take place and when provided new information (the lawsuit post) unwilling/unable to incorporate new information into your position. What value do you feel you are adding to the conversation? You seem to be wearing your McKinsey hat "they never do anything wrong, it is all justified just not at your level"..
      - throwaway202212 4y ago
        By first hand I mean you're the executive paying the bill and understand the motives behind hiring a consulting firm and the incentives such a firm is working under for the client. I'm doubtful most here have that experience (I certainly never did in 20 years of industry before joining a consulting firm). Having McKinsey or BCG walking around your office and telling you what to do is not first hand experience in my opinion. I'm trying to offer a unique opinion of a software engineer who spent a short time working in this industry. If you're not buying it then no problem. Personally, I would never invite McKinsey or any of these companies into my own company. But then again I don't run a 100k person company.
schnable 4y ago
It's not always so formal or sinister. I've seen consultants build relationships with younger managers and "rising stars" by buying them lunch and drinks, and even doing some free work that makes them look good. Then the consultant is an easy connection when there's some dollars to hire consultants.

azemetre 4y ago

I think I will now. I can't find the comment now, but there was a similar conspiracy about ex-Amazon Managers being paid to force their new employers to adopt AWS on one of the programming subreddits.

toyg 4y ago
There is usually no forcing: they are typically hired because of their AWS knowledge - the business has already decided to go AWS, the new hire is doing what he's expected to do.

throwaway202212 4y ago

This really sounds like a conspiracy theory. That being said, McKinsey (and presumably BCG and Bain) very much embrace their employees leaving to join their clients. It creates a good "referral" network if you will. But more than that, I don't buy it.

kennend3 4y ago
I'm obviously not using a throwaway account like you and so i am not willing to disclose details. But lets say that in my industry this sort of "kickback scheme" is well known. I saw it first hand, and have had friends tell me other instances of it as well. And i am NOT singling out "McKinsey" but consultants in general. As for McKinsey, read the book, they provide examples of this.
- exclusiv 4y ago
  The throwaways are likely shills (or charitably - ignorant employees that don't wish to dive into any claims about their employer?). There are actual cases involving big four and kickbacks/bonuses and corporate sabotage. One example in the last few years: BCG and NCR Corporation. "It is undisputed that Mr. Benjamin, as an officer of NCR, owed NCR a fiduciary duty that includes a duty of loyalty. The Counterclaims allege sufficient facts to show that Mr. Benjamin breached that duty by entering into a secret agreement with BCG to promote and expedite his candidacy for CEO. The Counterclaims further allege sufficient facts to show that BCG worked with Mr. Benjamin to negotiate a one-sided contract, and remove and replace employees who opposed adoption of the contract, and that BCG advocated for Mr. Benjamin’s promotion to CEO in hopes that he would award BCG with a discretionary bonus." [1] [1] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2019cv10156/525729/74/ https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-yor...
  - throwaway202212 4y ago
    I can only obviously speak to my own experience and I did not come across anything like this. There's no love lost between me and my former employer FWIW.
    - kennend3 4y ago
      Previously you said it was a "conspiracy". Someone posted the results of a lawsuit. Because of this, it is now irrefutable that this takes place and this is your response? "I can only speak to my own experience..".. Well.. Have you considered your experience may be severely limited? Perhaps in the future don't be so fast to pull the "conspiracy" card?
      - throwaway202212 4y ago
        Apologies, "in my opinion and limited experience" it sounds like a conspiracy theory. I'm not legally literate enough to understand the court opinion you attached. Regardless, of course there will be cases of bad players in any large company - that goes without saying. But its tiresome always hearing the same "McKinsey is the root of all evil and secretly influences governments and companies". The opinion that most engineers have of MBB is often based on conjecture as they typically have only ever hard arms length exposure to such consulting firms. As a software engineer myself, working at both startups and FAANG before McKinsey, I was of the exact same opinion about McKinsey and these types of companies. The truth is much more mundane and boring though.
doctor_eval 4y ago
I saw it happen with my own eyes.
kennend3 4y ago
PS - as a former McKinsey employee.. Would it be fair to say your view is biased? Look at your response on the "agile" comment. They feel it was "pure graft" and you defended it without knowing any details? Now look at the other response on this thread, where someone stated they saw it first hand as well. Are they in on the "conspiracy theory" as well, or perhaps there is truth to it?
- throwaway202212 4y ago
  It's fair to say my view would be biased. But probably not in the direction you would think. I think we need to be more critical of what it means to see things "first hand". MBB are typically operating at the executive level and the motivations between executives decisions typically don't reach the "rank and file" of the organization (forgive the wording). In my response I mentioned that the cost of engaging McKinsey is so extremely high that there will need to be some type of rational justification for bringing them in (beyond just covering my ass). That being said, I worked on a few projects where I wasn't sure whether the cost justifies the benefits but this was largely due to incompetence or overselling - never "pure graft".
  - kennend3 4y ago
    > I think we need to be more critical of what it means to see things "first hand". I think everyone needs to be more critical of "Shill" accounts such as yours. You are fast to assume that i did not see it "first hand", slow to realize that this does take place and when provided new information (the lawsuit post) unwilling/unable to incorporate new information into your position. What value do you feel you are adding to the conversation? You seem to be wearing your McKinsey hat "they never do anything wrong, it is all justified just not at your level"..
    - throwaway202212 4y ago
      By first hand I mean you're the executive paying the bill and understand the motives behind hiring a consulting firm and the incentives such a firm is working under for the client. I'm doubtful most here have that experience (I certainly never did in 20 years of industry before joining a consulting firm). Having McKinsey or BCG walking around your office and telling you what to do is not first hand experience in my opinion. I'm trying to offer a unique opinion of a software engineer who spent a short time working in this industry. If you're not buying it then no problem. Personally, I would never invite McKinsey or any of these companies into my own company. But then again I don't run a 100k person company.

schnable 4y ago

It's not always so formal or sinister. I've seen consultants build relationships with younger managers and "rising stars" by buying them lunch and drinks, and even doing some free work that makes them look good. Then the consultant is an easy connection when there's some dollars to hire consultants.