9 ms·

The feds do not need every citizen to hold an ID card, even if they might be trying to convince you otherwise. Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud

by branon 4y ago

The feds do not need every citizen to hold an ID card, even if they might be trying to convince you otherwise. Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by another child comment. The current federated system using state drivers' licenses seems fine to me, it's been functional through all of RealID's delays.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a national ID system, because that's how any functioning country works. The US is not special in that regard. In fact, most major countries in the world without an ID system are... all former colonies of the UK. But I guess you can keep on being scared of leaking your SSN (that everyone unofficially uses as an ID anyways) and keep on using different cards depending on the state. There's a reason identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much nowhere else in the world.
- bananapub 4y ago
  > Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a national ID system, is that true? I know Australia, UK, Ireland, US, don't have a national ID, while almost all EU countries do. What does it look like elsewhere?
- Godel_unicode 4y ago
  > identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much nowhere else in the world. That’s decidedly untrue. https://focusonbusiness.eu/en/news/one-in-five-europeans-have-experienced-identity-theft-fraud/3439 https://focusonbusiness.eu/en/news/one-in-five-europeans-hav...
  - sofixa 4y ago
    I don't see their methodology but this sounds absurd. Half of UK's citizens have experienced identity fraud? Highly suspicious numbers.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    The consequences of identity theft in many EU countries are dramatically less severe than in the US, though. This is mostly due to not using a short, immutable identifier (like the US SSN) effectively as a bearer token, as far as I can tell. Even getting a copy (or even the original!) of somebody's passport or driver's license is not enough to open a bank account or a credit card in many EU countries; in Germany, you need to actually appear in front of a bank employee (or subcontractor), personally or in a video chat, verify your identity, and confirm your intention to open a new account.
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      The downsides to identity fraud come from letting the parties that are defrauded push the problem onto an uninvolved third party. It should be easy to tell a bank to screw off when they issue a fraudulent account, it isn't the named parties fault that the bank wasn't diligent.
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  Living in the USA not having to carry an ID all the time is a breath of fresh air. Not having to call the cops to tell them I moved to that their records are up to date and so that they can come to my place of residence to see whether I actually live there is a breath of fresh air. I don't want to government to know that much about me. It has been proven over and over that less is better.
  - outworlder 4y ago
    > Not having to call the cops to tell them I moved to that their records are up to date and so that they can come to my place of residence to see whether I actually live there is a breath of fresh air. Eh. In most states you are required to get a new DL if you move. So, in fact, you have to tell the state where you live. Whereas with a national ID, that wouldn't be tied to a place of residence.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Whereas with a national ID, that wouldn’t be tied to a place of residence. Why would you assume that? our current substitute for a national ID (state issued ID compliant with the federal REAL ID Act) requires current address, and has higher standards for proof of address than many pre-REAL ID state IDs did.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        My passport and global entry card do not require a physical address. Just give me a US version of Estonia’s identity smart card and make it work with Login.gov.
      - everforward 4y ago
        Can't reply to toomuchtodo so dropping this here; your passport is tied to your address via your SSN which is tied to tax returns. They frankly probably know where you live better than the state you reside in. I know lots of people that haven't updated the address on their driver's license, but I don't know anyone that gives the IRS an incorrect address.
Godel_unicode 4y ago
If you are an American, you already have a federally issued ID it just isn’t very good. If you are an American who has traveled internationally you have at least two distinct federally issued IDs, which can get out of sync and cause a huge headache. At least 3 if you ever interacted with the IRS, 4 if you have a KTN, 5 if you have a TSA redress number… There are plenty of places where just a drivers license isn’t acceptable (getting a passport for instance) and requires you to play the stupid 1/2 from category A/B game. I agree that bringing up voting is a red herring, that’s a state thing and the several states should solve that for themselves. The US federal government needs a unified ID system which was designed as a robust, centralized ID system that can then be mandated for federal agencies to use.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Voting ID rules isn't just a state thing. On June 17, 2013, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that states cannot require proof of citizenship in cases of voter registration for federal elections unless the state receives federal or court approval to do so. That is the feds have said the states can't just solve that for themselves. The state I live in (Arizona) requires proof your presence is authorized to get state ID. If you are a citizen, that means proof of citizenship. But then loop back to supreme court decision above.
  - Godel_unicode 4y ago
    Edit: firstly, this is a distraction (i.e. a red herring) from the debate about national IDs. We have a national ID issue which needs to be fixed. That ruling doubles down on it being a state thing by saying leave citizenship (which is a federal thing) out of it. If a state creates for itself a catch-22, that is the states fault and is therefore the states responsibility to fix. Arizona needs to stop shirking it’s responsibility to its residents and come up with a solution to this problem, just like virtually every other state has.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
wdb 4y ago
I think a ID card is easier than a driver's license. Not everyone needs or wants a driver's license. If you don't have a driver's license, how can you vote in the US? Do you need a passport?
- MatthewMcDonald 4y ago
  You can get a non-driver id card from the same department that issues driver licenses in your state
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  It depends where you are. Some states, like mine, require ID to vote. Some don't. Some have strict rules on absentee ballots. Others allow "vote by mail" or ballot drop boxes.
- throwaway742 4y ago
  I just filled out a piece of paper to register to vote, mailed it in, and then when I showed up at my polling place I signed next to my name on the voter roles. Post covid they they just mail you a ballot now and you mail it back or take it to a drop box. If you want to vote in person you take your mail-in ballot and surrender it and they give you a regular ballot.
- jacobr1 4y ago
  When I have voted in my state, I just tell them my name and then sign a paper asserting I'm me. No ID is involved.
tzs 4y ago
> Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by another child comment. It's not needed to prevent voter fraud in the US because there is very little voter fraud to prevent. What it could help with is reducing voter suppression. Several states, claiming that it is necessary to prevent fraud (which they cannot actually find any significant examples of) have instituted voter ID requirements. In many of these there has been a pretty good correlation between what ID they accept and whether or not the people who tend to vote for the party enacting the ID require are more likely to already have that form of ID than the people who tend to vote for the other party. These are often accompanied by changes to how IDs are issued that make it significantly harder for many people who vote for the other party to obtain ID. For example, state IDs are often issued by the same department that issues driver's licenses. Some states, citing budget issues, have closed such offices, with the closures hitting hardest is largely minority areas, and reduced hours in the offices remaining open eliminating weekend and evening hours. This makes it so that for many people in those areas that lost their offices getting an ID means losing a day of work or more, which many of them cannot afford and so have to give up voting. A Federal ID that is easy to obtain for all citizens, very cheap or free, and that states are required to accept as voter ID could go a long way to helping eligible voters actually be able to vote.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  > easy to obtain for all citizens, very cheap or free This is the key point, though, and harder than it sounds. It needs to be (at least approximately) free-as-in-beer with a small time investment, while still gathering adequate evidence of identity. My best idea is to build it as an outgrowth of the passport infrastructure without the relatively onerous forms and other costs. Doing it through the post office like passports is as good an idea as any, but you need to make sure they all have (working![0]) cameras and trained personnel. Not cheap. I'm all for the idea, I just don't want people to underestimate the difficulty, because that will make it more likely to fail. [0] When I went to get my passport, the camera at the post office was broken. I had to run across the street to the drug store. Not fatal, but a pain, and not something you could tolerate at scale for voter id.

by branon 4y ago

ohgodplsno 4y ago

Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a national ID system, because that's how any functioning country works. The US is not special in that regard. In fact, most major countries in the world without an ID system are... all former colonies of the UK. But I guess you can keep on being scared of leaking your SSN (that everyone unofficially uses as an ID anyways) and keep on using different cards depending on the state. There's a reason identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much nowhere else in the world.

bananapub 4y ago
> Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a national ID system, is that true? I know Australia, UK, Ireland, US, don't have a national ID, while almost all EU countries do. What does it look like elsewhere?
Godel_unicode 4y ago
> identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much nowhere else in the world. That’s decidedly untrue. https://focusonbusiness.eu/en/news/one-in-five-europeans-have-experienced-identity-theft-fraud/3439 https://focusonbusiness.eu/en/news/one-in-five-europeans-hav...
- sofixa 4y ago
  I don't see their methodology but this sounds absurd. Half of UK's citizens have experienced identity fraud? Highly suspicious numbers.
- lxgr 4y ago
  The consequences of identity theft in many EU countries are dramatically less severe than in the US, though. This is mostly due to not using a short, immutable identifier (like the US SSN) effectively as a bearer token, as far as I can tell. Even getting a copy (or even the original!) of somebody's passport or driver's license is not enough to open a bank account or a credit card in many EU countries; in Germany, you need to actually appear in front of a bank employee (or subcontractor), personally or in a video chat, verify your identity, and confirm your intention to open a new account.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    The downsides to identity fraud come from letting the parties that are defrauded push the problem onto an uninvolved third party. It should be easy to tell a bank to screw off when they issue a fraudulent account, it isn't the named parties fault that the bank wasn't diligent.
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
Living in the USA not having to carry an ID all the time is a breath of fresh air. Not having to call the cops to tell them I moved to that their records are up to date and so that they can come to my place of residence to see whether I actually live there is a breath of fresh air. I don't want to government to know that much about me. It has been proven over and over that less is better.
- outworlder 4y ago
  > Not having to call the cops to tell them I moved to that their records are up to date and so that they can come to my place of residence to see whether I actually live there is a breath of fresh air. Eh. In most states you are required to get a new DL if you move. So, in fact, you have to tell the state where you live. Whereas with a national ID, that wouldn't be tied to a place of residence.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Whereas with a national ID, that wouldn’t be tied to a place of residence. Why would you assume that? our current substitute for a national ID (state issued ID compliant with the federal REAL ID Act) requires current address, and has higher standards for proof of address than many pre-REAL ID state IDs did.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      My passport and global entry card do not require a physical address. Just give me a US version of Estonia’s identity smart card and make it work with Login.gov.
    - everforward 4y ago
      Can't reply to toomuchtodo so dropping this here; your passport is tied to your address via your SSN which is tied to tax returns. They frankly probably know where you live better than the state you reside in. I know lots of people that haven't updated the address on their driver's license, but I don't know anyone that gives the IRS an incorrect address.

Godel_unicode 4y ago

If you are an American, you already have a federally issued ID it just isn’t very good. If you are an American who has traveled internationally you have at least two distinct federally issued IDs, which can get out of sync and cause a huge headache. At least 3 if you ever interacted with the IRS, 4 if you have a KTN, 5 if you have a TSA redress number… There are plenty of places where just a drivers license isn’t acceptable (getting a passport for instance) and requires you to play the stupid 1/2 from category A/B game. I agree that bringing up voting is a red herring, that’s a state thing and the several states should solve that for themselves. The US federal government needs a unified ID system which was designed as a robust, centralized ID system that can then be mandated for federal agencies to use.

notch656a 4y ago
Voting ID rules isn't just a state thing. On June 17, 2013, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that states cannot require proof of citizenship in cases of voter registration for federal elections unless the state receives federal or court approval to do so. That is the feds have said the states can't just solve that for themselves. The state I live in (Arizona) requires proof your presence is authorized to get state ID. If you are a citizen, that means proof of citizenship. But then loop back to supreme court decision above.
- Godel_unicode 4y ago
  Edit: firstly, this is a distraction (i.e. a red herring) from the debate about national IDs. We have a national ID issue which needs to be fixed. That ruling doubles down on it being a state thing by saying leave citizenship (which is a federal thing) out of it. If a state creates for itself a catch-22, that is the states fault and is therefore the states responsibility to fix. Arizona needs to stop shirking it’s responsibility to its residents and come up with a solution to this problem, just like virtually every other state has.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

wdb 4y ago

I think a ID card is easier than a driver's license. Not everyone needs or wants a driver's license. If you don't have a driver's license, how can you vote in the US? Do you need a passport?

MatthewMcDonald 4y ago
You can get a non-driver id card from the same department that issues driver licenses in your state
SoftTalker 4y ago
It depends where you are. Some states, like mine, require ID to vote. Some don't. Some have strict rules on absentee ballots. Others allow "vote by mail" or ballot drop boxes.
throwaway742 4y ago
I just filled out a piece of paper to register to vote, mailed it in, and then when I showed up at my polling place I signed next to my name on the voter roles. Post covid they they just mail you a ballot now and you mail it back or take it to a drop box. If you want to vote in person you take your mail-in ballot and surrender it and they give you a regular ballot.
jacobr1 4y ago
When I have voted in my state, I just tell them my name and then sign a paper asserting I'm me. No ID is involved.

tzs 4y ago

> Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by another child comment. It's not needed to prevent voter fraud in the US because there is very little voter fraud to prevent. What it could help with is reducing voter suppression. Several states, claiming that it is necessary to prevent fraud (which they cannot actually find any significant examples of) have instituted voter ID requirements. In many of these there has been a pretty good correlation between what ID they accept and whether or not the people who tend to vote for the party enacting the ID require are more likely to already have that form of ID than the people who tend to vote for the other party. These are often accompanied by changes to how IDs are issued that make it significantly harder for many people who vote for the other party to obtain ID. For example, state IDs are often issued by the same department that issues driver's licenses. Some states, citing budget issues, have closed such offices, with the closures hitting hardest is largely minority areas, and reduced hours in the offices remaining open eliminating weekend and evening hours. This makes it so that for many people in those areas that lost their offices getting an ID means losing a day of work or more, which many of them cannot afford and so have to give up voting. A Federal ID that is easy to obtain for all citizens, very cheap or free, and that states are required to accept as voter ID could go a long way to helping eligible voters actually be able to vote.

andrewflnr 4y ago
> easy to obtain for all citizens, very cheap or free This is the key point, though, and harder than it sounds. It needs to be (at least approximately) free-as-in-beer with a small time investment, while still gathering adequate evidence of identity. My best idea is to build it as an outgrowth of the passport infrastructure without the relatively onerous forms and other costs. Doing it through the post office like passports is as good an idea as any, but you need to make sure they all have (working![0]) cameras and trained personnel. Not cheap. I'm all for the idea, I just don't want people to underestimate the difficulty, because that will make it more likely to fail. [0] When I went to get my passport, the camera at the post office was broken. I had to run across the street to the drug store. Not fatal, but a pain, and not something you could tolerate at scale for voter id.