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The fact that the US Government does not have an actual ID card is absurd. A lot of problems - especially voting related ones! - can be solved by having an actu

• jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  • gjsman-1000 4y ago
    > But if you're unfamiliar, I'll explain that a common evangelical christian belief is that a national ID card may be somehow related to the "mark of the beast" stuff in revelations. This is a parody by non-Christians of what most of them actually believe. For most of them the concern is over microchips, implants, or something physically on their person, not an ID Card, and even there is not uniform concern over it. Revelations itself says that it will be on their right hand or forehead, which no ID Card is. One could argue that it is a foreshadowing of things to come, if not itself it. As for where the concern comes from, it's not the ID itself, as much as the implication that in the future, people will be required to commit apostasy in order to get an ID, or the chip, or whatever have you. Thus, they are opposed, so as to prevent such a lockout.
    • p_j_w 4y ago
      GP didn't say the ID was the mar of the beast, only that it was related to it. Having grown up in an evangelical household, I very much disagree that what he's said is a parody of what evangelicals believe. He is spot on.
      • adamrezich 4y ago
        you have directly experienced Christians directly expressing aversion to non-bodily-invasive state or federal ID, specifically on Christian grounds?
        • xnyan 4y ago
          Yes, frequently. It's not uncommon at all where I was raised (US South). We can talk to my father, or almost any member of his congregation, about how a national ID is a government plot to identify, control and harm the faithful.
        • badwolf 4y ago
          It really isn't that uncommon of a belief.
          • adamrezich 4y ago
            really? still, to this day? one would think that evangelical Christians would skew conservative, and therefore be in favor of state/federal ID, for election security purposes.
            • mikeyouse 4y ago
              These people are extremely conservative - well past treating "election security" as a primary concern and far closer to "welcoming the return of Jesus / the rapture" as their single motivating force. They'll of course support most other conservative causes, but only so far as they don't conflict with salvation.
        • TylerE 4y ago
          Yes. The Bible Belt is very very real.
        • p_j_w 4y ago
          Yes. They (my parents) believed any sort of centralized federal ID was a "slippery slope," though they weren't educated enough to know and use that exact phrase, towards an implanted chip, barcode tattoo, or whatever form they were convinced it would take.
        • spoilqueue 4y ago
          I certainly have. Multiple times.
    • woodruffw 4y ago
      Genuine questions: (1) what about obtaining an ID would somehow imply the need to commit apostasy and, as an extension (2) what about that would be unique versus, say, obtaining car insurance or a bank account? Even assuming an eschatological evangelical worldview, it isn't immediately clear to me what distinguishes IDs from any other engagement in society.
      • politician 4y ago
        Let me try to explain. The government of that time will say that you must publicly affirm your association with the beast to receive an identifier. The placement of the identifier on your hand or forehead will itself be positioned as a continual affirmation of your association with Team Beast. So, if you are wearing it then you are proclaiming your association with the beast. The beast is described as hating God and hating Christians and persecuting them. If you wear its badge (mark), then you would be affirming those actions. This, obviously, creates a problem for Christians who are commanded to love God and to love others. If it was just an identifier that held no other meaning, then it's fine, but it's called the "mark of the beast" and it's described as a literal badge of association with this creature. It's not just a bank account number. Hope that helps. If not, just imagine how odious it would be, especially to Democrats, if Republicans made it a requirement to wear your MAGA hat to buy food.
      • yucky 4y ago
        "In order to have a valid citizenship ID you must submit to your biannual Multivax Booster+ Gold (or Platinum) plan sponsored by Pfizer" I'm agnostic and always found these sorts of religious doomsday proclamations to be exaggerations, but after seeing what the masses have openly embraced over the last 2 years I know I was wrong. It hasn't made me religious, but I can definitely see their concern for being forced into any number of situations in order to fully participate in society. It's not worth it.
    • jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
      I grew up in an evangelical household and this is what my family believes. It's not a parody sadly.
  • pessimizer 4y ago
    What's so bad about the situation?
    • Godel_unicode 4y ago
      There are a large number of people stuck in semi-permanent limbo because their disjointed federal IDs don’t agree about some combination of birthday, spelling of name, etc. I have a friend who fills out their taxes with a birthday which is not their birthday because they can’t get the SSA change the date on file(they insist the state must be wrong and that the state should change). Getting a passport required months of effort and ultimately a lawyer because the federal and state documents disagree. Having one master citizen record would allow us to have one place to make changes and one group to appeal to when fixing errors. Also, to be super clear, all Americans already have at least one federal ID, it’s just a bad one. Let’s make it less bad.
      • landemva 4y ago
        > all Americans already have at least one federal ID False. "American" is by birth and SSN is voluntary.
• dotBen 4y ago
  No, UK not only has no ID card but also doesn't have the equivalent of an SSN. The National Insurance number serves the same primary purpose as SSN, for associating tax payments, but it doesn't otherwise serve as a unique identifier for each citizen - it's not used on credit card applications for example. UK has lower %age of drivers than US due to strong public transport, so mandating a drivers license for ID isn't feasible. The UK just bought in new ID rules for voting which bizarrely allow for things like a senior citizen rail card to be used. (it's being brought in by our conservative government for same reason as US - to disenfranchise certain voter blocks - hence why a senior citizen rail card is fine but a youth or normal adult one is not)
  • ZanyProgrammer 4y ago
    Ok but the UK is also an outlier.
  • was_a_dev 4y ago
    > The UK just bought in new ID rules for voting which bizarrely allow for things like a senior citizen rail card to be used. Yepp, Oyster 60+ Card is valid for voting, but a Student 18+ Card isn't
  • stonemetal12 4y ago
    In the US we say "driver's license" because 90+% of the population has one, but the portion of the population who doesn't wish to drive can get a State ID card. The only difference between an ID card and a driver's license is on the back where it lists what types of vehicles you are allowed to drive and what types of restrictions have been placed on your driving them. In the UK how do you prevent minors from buying alcohol if you don't have some sort of ID with DOB on it?
    • was_a_dev 4y ago
      If they have no ID, no sale
  • wdb 4y ago
    Voting is pretty bizarre. I voted for some local elections and they didn't even check my ID. I had to tell my name they checked my name on the list and I could vote. I could then come back a few hours later again in name of a flat mate of who was on vacation.
• rwbt 4y ago
  I'd rather have a federated ID system like what we have currently with state drivers licenses/voter id systems. Social Security Number/TIN is already used as a unique identifier for all financial transactions anyways. It's messy and complex at times, but in the long run I'd rather deal with a bunch of small state level bureaucracies than a giant federal behemoth that barely functions (looking at you IRS).
  • xxpor 4y ago
    The single time I've ever had an issue with the IRS - I forgot to sign a 1080X - They sent me a letter, I signed it, and everything was perfectly fine. They collect a massive amount of payments and paperwork every year. I don't know how you could say they're barely functioning. The DMV on the other hand is the joke in American culture about incompetent bureaucracies.
    • rwbt 4y ago
      Count yourself very lucky that you never had an issue with the IRS. I had to deal with a mistake that the IRS made erroneously and even after 4 years it is still not resolved. Every 6 months I get a letter that the IRS still hasn't bothered to look into it and I'm guessing they likely never will. DMV is the butt of all the jokes, but atleast you can walk into a DMV office and a real person, however annoyed they might be will try to help you.
  • woodruffw 4y ago
    Is the IRS well known as a barely functioning behemoth? There's no shortage of animus towards them, but it's generally seemed closer to "I don't like the agency that takes my money" than "this agency is incompetent."
    • ohgodplsno 4y ago
      Behemoth ? yes. Impractical for US citizens ? yes. Barely functioning ? The IRS will find you halfway across the world for an unpaid $20.
• noncoml 4y ago
  UK doesn’t have ID either, but I think most European countries do
  • jeltz 4y ago
    The UK used to have an ID but the conservatives scrapped it.
    • switch007 4y ago
      There was legislation, some slow movements towards ID, but nothing really happened. The general public weren’t required to carry ID. But yes the conservative and Lib Dem coalition repealed it > Only workers in certain high-security professions, such as airport workers, were required to have an identity card in 2009,[clarification needed] and this general lack of compulsory ID remains the case today. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
• branon 4y ago
  The feds do not need every citizen to hold an ID card, even if they might be trying to convince you otherwise. Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by another child comment. The current federated system using state drivers' licenses seems fine to me, it's been functional through all of RealID's delays.
  • ohgodplsno 4y ago
    Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a national ID system, because that's how any functioning country works. The US is not special in that regard. In fact, most major countries in the world without an ID system are... all former colonies of the UK. But I guess you can keep on being scared of leaking your SSN (that everyone unofficially uses as an ID anyways) and keep on using different cards depending on the state. There's a reason identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much nowhere else in the world.
    • bananapub 4y ago
      > Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a national ID system, is that true? I know Australia, UK, Ireland, US, don't have a national ID, while almost all EU countries do. What does it look like elsewhere?
    • Godel_unicode 4y ago
      > identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much nowhere else in the world. That’s decidedly untrue. https://focusonbusiness.eu/en/news/one-in-five-europeans-have-experienced-identity-theft-fraud/3439 https://focusonbusiness.eu/en/news/one-in-five-europeans-hav...
      • sofixa 4y ago
        I don't see their methodology but this sounds absurd. Half of UK's citizens have experienced identity fraud? Highly suspicious numbers.
      • 4y ago
• marsven_422 4y ago
• yieldcrv 4y ago
  There is a passport card But it is pretty useless, I didnt renew mine with the renewal of my passport book Can be used at bars and domestic travel and with employer verification, but not international air travel which is the main reason i would have it
  • jsmith45 4y ago
    Amusingly ICAO (the UN aviation standardizations organization) has specified the ID card format for Machine Readable (Official) Travel Documents. And the passport card conforms to those specifications. But the only use of it that they officially encourage countries to accept is the Crew Member Certificate. In all other cases, acceptance would be based on agreements between the involved countries. In theory, any country could choose to accept any such document without an agreement, but they have little reason to do so, and it is not really compatible with paper visas. Furthermore, they should refuse it if there are unmatched conditions printed on the back of the card, like the passport cards have. The result is that they are of pretty limited use, and most countries that do use them will restrict them to specific scenarios where there are agreements in place.
  • kylehotchkiss 4y ago
    Not useful for international air travel but remarkably usable as general ID when traveling abroad. When I’ve been asked for an ID for random purposes and showed it while traveling, it’s worked just fine. Worth the $100 or whatever to not have to share my home address with some stranger
• HeavenFox 4y ago
  One underappreciated benefit of the lack of national ID is it forces the system to deal with a plethora of different IDs, and therefore makes the lives of those with rare forms of ID (such as foreigners) much simpler.
  • lxgr 4y ago
    A nice idea, but in my experience that's not the case. Quite a lot of financial institutions will still only accept a US state-issued driver's license to open an account with them, even though they generally accept foreigners. I've even encountered one that accepts only driver's licenses and not (also DMV-issued) learner's permits or non-driving IDs!
• phpisthebest 4y ago
  Sorry I like federalism, and oppose a centralized state. the Federal government in the US has WAY WAY WAY too much power now
• asveikau 4y ago
  ID cards to vote would disproportionately obstruct legitimate voting of older people and racial minorities. You need to understand that adding barriers to vote in the US has a 100+ year history of nefarious things like preventing eligible black people from voting as their primary purpose, then a firm understanding of the motives of such modern discussions falls quickly into place. Silly people who complain about "wokeness", maybe many of them here on HN, will say I'm being paranoid or outdated in that description, but the history is dark, ugly, and very real.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • thewrongthinker 4y ago
    That is not an argument. The same way wokes say “look at Europe” when it comes to healthcare, conservatives say “look at Europe” when it comes to id cards. All through the EU, id cards are the norm. If we can do it, so can you. This whole “but think of the black people” is bs. What are you, some kind of racist? You don’t think black people can get ids?
    • asveikau 4y ago
      Obviously there's no shortage of ugly history in Europe, but Europe doesn't have this particular historical context. I would expect Europeans to be naive about this. I've had this discussion before. > You don’t think black people can get ids? Statistically, they are less likely to do so. Edit: For me, an eye opening tidbit was this admission by a Republican strategist that the late 20th century discourse was about shifting from overt language about racism to more covert, abstract, economic talking points that are still rooted in racism. This is a left wing source but has the actual audio recording of that admission. https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwa... -- the takeaway is that you can't take a surface level read on a proposal and trust that no direct mention of race implies that it is not racist. I think what Atwater predicted in this clip somewhat came true. Enough time has passed that young people have unironically embraced the dog whistles as idealized abstractions about small government and economics, states rights or federalism, without realizing they used to be dog whistles and not genuinely held when popularized.
• SoftTalker 4y ago
  Voting is a state concern. The federal government isn't really involved, certainly not at the level of identifying voters.
• worldsavior 4y ago
  ID card is not needed. There is no reason to hold one since they already have access to your data, and authenticate by your picture and other. Using a card just allows more fraud crimes, something that is already very bad in the US.
  • toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Great observation. It’s why TSA is moving to facial biometrics. Less need for ID and suboptimal human evaluation of person->ID. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33865633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33865633
    • worldsavior 4y ago
      This is a great security measure. Tho it's pretty privacy invasive in some aspects, but otherwise it's good.
    • jacobr1 4y ago
      When I traveled to Saudi Arabia a few years ago they took my fingerprints at customs. When exiting the country, I didn't give them my passport - they just scanned my thumbs and asked me to confirm my name.
• digianarchist 4y ago
  After moving to the US from Canada it's pretty shocking the number of institutions that do not accept either your passport or a federally issued ID (TTP) as valid identification. Everyone wants a state ID such as a driver's license to open bank accounts online. This Real ID deadline has made it a massive pain to get a California DL and of course California doesn't allow exchange of a Canadian Provincial DL unlike the reverse.
  • bombcar 4y ago
    Almost everywhere I’ve been will accept a US passport with prodding, but online “instant verification” systems are universally shitty.
    • digianarchist 4y ago
      That's the one ID a Canadian citizen isn't able to get.
      • bombcar 4y ago
        Well you can but it’s a much more involved process. And requires swearing fealty to the flag and apple pie.
  • kylehotchkiss 4y ago
    “Massive pain” I presume you’re taking about address proofs. The secret is that they aren’t so strict about it. Change the bank or credit card address nearest to issuing next statement. Then just sign up for Google fi and use whatever address. When I needed to change an CA drivers license address to a friends while living abroad for a bit, getting these two proofs took me under a week. And my friends address was where I wanted any correspondence to go, so I considered the change genuine for my situation
    • refurb 4y ago
      Pretty much. A friend had a live-in nanny who needed state ID, but had no proof of US address. A lease qualifies, so the friend just typed up a lease with an address. Good enough for real ID.
• indymike 4y ago
  Delegating ID to states (ID & driver's license) and states delegating to local jurisdictions (birth certificate) for identity actually makes sense. At the Federal level, they confirm and issue IDs for employees, people who work at Federal locations, and people who want to travel outside the US.
• kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  Passport cards seem like a good way to begin to offer this. I flash mine as my “national ID” when traveling abroad (since I’m asked for one occasionally). I like that it doesn’t have an address on it which I have zero desires to share with strangers. All the people overseas care about is that it “looks official” and the passport card has some shiny US-type security features that fit that qualification
• refurb 4y ago
  Voter ID is a "problem" because a lot of people don't want it.
• slaw 4y ago
  US government has actual ID card, it is passport card.
• stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Is there really any voting related problems for ID though? Voter ID fraud is essentially 0 at this point. Only the low information people can't come to terms with that. State IDs are fine. If you want a national ID just get a passport