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What's the real difference between the government stationing armed soldiers in your town to maintain the peace, and stationing armed police in your town to main

What's the real difference between the government stationing armed soldiers in your town to maintain the peace, and stationing armed police in your town to maintain the peace? The former became unfashionable so it was replaced with the later. Such soldiers were renamed for "PR" but the situation is functionally equivalent. Officially there are some differences, like police being accountable to civilian courts instead of military courts... but I think it is now generally acknowledged that civilian courts have a double standard for police. So this distinction is more theoretical than practical. In my view, it's fair to consider anybody who carries a gun for the state as a soldier, in an informal sense.

vkou 4y ago
> What's the real difference between the government stationing armed soldiers in your town to maintain the peace, and stationing armed police in your town to maintain the peace? One's subject to military tribunals[1], while the other is subject to regular courts, which from all evidence seem to be incredibly biased in their favour. [1] Of which I know next to nothing.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  Can't forget rules of engagement. I've seen multiple (as-claimed-on-the-internet) soldiers complain about cop-malfeasance with respect to the situations in which gunfire is allowed to occur. They opine that if cops were trained like they were, shootings would look very different, be much rarer, and be much more defensible to the average joe.
  - okasaki 4y ago
    Sounds like bullshit. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/01/obama-continue-signature-strikes-drones-civilian-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/01/obama-contin... > So-called “signature strikes”, targeting people whose behavior is assessed to be similar enough to those of terrorists to mark them for death, will continue, according to senior US officials. > Human-rights groups have long denounced the practice – whose criteria can be as vague as killing “military-aged males” in regions where terrorists operate – as anonymous killing.
    - revolvingocelot 4y ago
      Looks like your article refers to aerial strikes. How on earth did you read "gunfire" and think "Predator drone"? Not that the American military doesn't indiscriminately kill people, but you're free to look up RoE for ground troops and discussions thereof yourself.
  - skorpeon87 4y ago
    > multiple (as-claimed-on-the-internet) soldiers complain about cop-malfeasance with respect to the situations in which gunfire is allowed to occur. Soldiers tooting their own horns; this self-aggrandizement is not to be taken seriously. There is evidence that police with military backgrounds are more likely to be involved in shootings. Police who are combat veterans are even more likely to be involved in shootings. Soldier training does not make good police. https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/article/41/3/e245/5114353 https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/article/41/3/e245/511435...
    - revolvingocelot 4y ago
      >>They opine that if cops were trained like they were >There is evidence that police with military backgrounds are more likely to be involved in shootings. Ah, but that's not the claim being made. You've quite adroitly shown proof that former soldiers make shooty LEOs. I'm relating that soldiers suggest that if all cops were trained as soldiers were with respect to not firing their weapons until some situational conditions were met, shootings would fall. I'd imagine that the sort of soldier who comes home and seeks out the experience of being a cop, immersed in "killology" [0] as they are (a philosophy that suggests firing your weapons), would indeed become the sort of cop to wind up being involved in a shooting. ...and I'm aware that "killology"'s founder and chief proselytizer is a former soldier. Note, however, that he does not advise cops that they must be strictly bound by any RoE before being willing to fire their weapons; he advises quite the opposite. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-training-warrior-mindset-killology/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-trai...
      - skorpeon87 4y ago
        There is simply no evidence that American military training would produce better police than extant American police. Nothing other than the self-aggrandizing claims of people who claim to be veterans on the internet. Claims that usually go unchallenged, and repeated uncritically (as above), because this country has a culture of soldier worship. Besides the evidence to the contrary which I have already posted, I think you need to be more skeptical of the claims American soldiers make about their conduct in Iraq and Afghanistan. Talk about rules of engagement is cheap, what matters is the actual execution of those rules. American soldiers were made to behave as police in those countries, and in neither case were they good at it. American police are bad enough already, the last thing they need is even more military training.
Arrath 4y ago
Well, the armed forces have much stricter rules of engagement than police do, so that's one point in favor of soldiers.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  OTOH they are trained to kill people and destroy things, not enforce the law or maintain civil order.
woodruffw 4y ago
The difference in US law falls under the Posse Comitatus Act[1] (which has been repeatedly expanded over the last 150 years): the government, by law, cannot use military forces for domestic law enforcement. I'm no particular fan of the US military (much less the police), but the practical and historical distinctions between the two are substantial: one is the professional military of a country, and the other is a professionalization of antebellum slave catching posses. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  That limits what the federal government can do with the US military. Governors have more lattiude with using state-level military (i.e. national guard units) in their own states.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  I think the comment you are replying to is making a slightly different point: what's the point of Posse Comitatus when heavily armed, trigger happy, indemnified government employees can do the exact same thing by just wearing blue instead of camo?
  - skorpeon87 4y ago
    Exactly.

vkou 4y ago

> What's the real difference between the government stationing armed soldiers in your town to maintain the peace, and stationing armed police in your town to maintain the peace? One's subject to military tribunals[1], while the other is subject to regular courts, which from all evidence seem to be incredibly biased in their favour. [1] Of which I know next to nothing.

revolvingocelot 4y ago
Can't forget rules of engagement. I've seen multiple (as-claimed-on-the-internet) soldiers complain about cop-malfeasance with respect to the situations in which gunfire is allowed to occur. They opine that if cops were trained like they were, shootings would look very different, be much rarer, and be much more defensible to the average joe.
- okasaki 4y ago
  Sounds like bullshit. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/01/obama-continue-signature-strikes-drones-civilian-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/01/obama-contin... > So-called “signature strikes”, targeting people whose behavior is assessed to be similar enough to those of terrorists to mark them for death, will continue, according to senior US officials. > Human-rights groups have long denounced the practice – whose criteria can be as vague as killing “military-aged males” in regions where terrorists operate – as anonymous killing.
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    Looks like your article refers to aerial strikes. How on earth did you read "gunfire" and think "Predator drone"? Not that the American military doesn't indiscriminately kill people, but you're free to look up RoE for ground troops and discussions thereof yourself.
- skorpeon87 4y ago
  > multiple (as-claimed-on-the-internet) soldiers complain about cop-malfeasance with respect to the situations in which gunfire is allowed to occur. Soldiers tooting their own horns; this self-aggrandizement is not to be taken seriously. There is evidence that police with military backgrounds are more likely to be involved in shootings. Police who are combat veterans are even more likely to be involved in shootings. Soldier training does not make good police. https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/article/41/3/e245/5114353 https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/article/41/3/e245/511435...
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    >>They opine that if cops were trained like they were >There is evidence that police with military backgrounds are more likely to be involved in shootings. Ah, but that's not the claim being made. You've quite adroitly shown proof that former soldiers make shooty LEOs. I'm relating that soldiers suggest that if all cops were trained as soldiers were with respect to not firing their weapons until some situational conditions were met, shootings would fall. I'd imagine that the sort of soldier who comes home and seeks out the experience of being a cop, immersed in "killology" [0] as they are (a philosophy that suggests firing your weapons), would indeed become the sort of cop to wind up being involved in a shooting. ...and I'm aware that "killology"'s founder and chief proselytizer is a former soldier. Note, however, that he does not advise cops that they must be strictly bound by any RoE before being willing to fire their weapons; he advises quite the opposite. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-training-warrior-mindset-killology/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-trai...
    - skorpeon87 4y ago
      There is simply no evidence that American military training would produce better police than extant American police. Nothing other than the self-aggrandizing claims of people who claim to be veterans on the internet. Claims that usually go unchallenged, and repeated uncritically (as above), because this country has a culture of soldier worship. Besides the evidence to the contrary which I have already posted, I think you need to be more skeptical of the claims American soldiers make about their conduct in Iraq and Afghanistan. Talk about rules of engagement is cheap, what matters is the actual execution of those rules. American soldiers were made to behave as police in those countries, and in neither case were they good at it. American police are bad enough already, the last thing they need is even more military training.

Arrath 4y ago

Well, the armed forces have much stricter rules of engagement than police do, so that's one point in favor of soldiers.

SoftTalker 4y ago
OTOH they are trained to kill people and destroy things, not enforce the law or maintain civil order.

woodruffw 4y ago

The difference in US law falls under the Posse Comitatus Act[1] (which has been repeatedly expanded over the last 150 years): the government, by law, cannot use military forces for domestic law enforcement. I'm no particular fan of the US military (much less the police), but the practical and historical distinctions between the two are substantial: one is the professional military of a country, and the other is a professionalization of antebellum slave catching posses. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

SoftTalker 4y ago
That limits what the federal government can do with the US military. Governors have more lattiude with using state-level military (i.e. national guard units) in their own states.
LatteLazy 4y ago
I think the comment you are replying to is making a slightly different point: what's the point of Posse Comitatus when heavily armed, trigger happy, indemnified government employees can do the exact same thing by just wearing blue instead of camo?
- skorpeon87 4y ago
  Exactly.