4 ms·

Very few cyclists get crushed, the overwhelming majority of people who die in cycling accidents suffer the head trauma that helmets are specifically meant to pr

by jjk166 4y ago

Very few cyclists get crushed, the overwhelming majority of people who die in cycling accidents suffer the head trauma that helmets are specifically meant to prevent. Plenty of people do bike daily without a helmet, likewise plenty of people don't wear their seatbelts daily - and 99.9% of the time they suffer no ill effect. The Netherlands is one of the few countries where more people die per year cycling than driving, and per capita they have a much higher cycling fatality rate than neighboring countries. Well designed infrastructure is a good thing, but accidents still happen.

jeffbee 4y ago
Head injuries are also the most common thing that kills drivers. Your argument provides an equally strong case that drivers should be required to wear helmets. The hierarchy of helmet need is #1 motorcyclists, #2 drivers, #3 pedestrians–pedestrian head injuries are incredibly common–, and #4 cyclists.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  The first couple of pages in this doc substantiate your claim (for Portland) at least: https://www.portland.gov/sites/default/files/2022/traffic-crash-report-2021.pdf https://www.portland.gov/sites/default/files/2022/traffic-cr...
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    Well, that is interesting, but head injuries are often from just falling over from any height, not really from being hit by cars. Most traumatic brain injuries in older adults are from falling from standing height or less.
- chollida1 4y ago
  > The hierarchy of helmet need is #1 motorcyclists, #2 drivers, #3 pedestrians–pedestrian head injuries are incredibly common–, and #4 cyclists. Interesting. I would have assumed cyclists are second given how fast road bikes go and the fact that they normally ride on major roads where cars speeds are well above 60 km/hr. How did you arrive at your ordering? Was it from an unlinked source?
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    I'm just going from national injury stats you can find in CDC WONDER and derived reports. Head injuries among American cyclists are a non-issue, far behind practically all other causes of head injuries, and using government powers to force cyclists to wear helmets is a complete waste of everyone's time. My go-to reference for this is https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10053381/1/Mindell_Cause%20of%20death%20ppr%20R2_18Jun2018_Accepted.pdf https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10053381/1/Mindell_Cau... but if you want to translate it from UK to USA you have to do it yourself.
    - chollida1 4y ago
      I appreciate the link, but I can't tell if those number are per capita or just raw numbers. It would make sense that bike numbers are smaller if they are just the raw numbers given that there are probably 100x more cyclists and 1000x more pedestrians than bikers. If those numbers aren't adjusted for usage then it makes bikes look even more dangerous when you adjust for how often each form of travel is used. As someone who commutes by bike, yikes!!
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    I am both a motorcycle rider and a bicycle rider for decades. While I never-ever got on the motorcycle without a helmet, half of my bicycle rides on the road are without a helmet and the only reason I wear one ever is because it has better venting than a regular cotton cap. I always wear a helmet offroad on the bicycle. The day the helmet will be mandatory on a bicycle I will sell by bikes, it means cycling is too dangerous to be on a street and the government is incapable of protecting cyclists but by mandating helmets. It's like mandating bulletproof vests in Philadelphia or Baltimore instead of solving the gun violence problem in the cities.
    - chollida1 4y ago
      > While I never-ever got on the motorcycle without a helmet, half of my bicycle rides on the road are without a helmet and the only reason I wear one ever is because it has better venting than a regular cotton cap. I always wear a helmet offroad on the bicycle. Interesting, why don't you wear a helmet on the road? I assume the reason you always wear a helmet off road is because of all the falls on trails?
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  The classic argument is that people should be wearing bike helmets when climbing ladders, using stairs and having a shower (a lot of people slip in the shower). However, when examined logically in terms of head protection, people think that it's only appropriate for cyclists.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  If you are basing on totally detached statistics, maybe.. But what's obviously missing is context. Safety is all about context. Walking shouldn't require protection until excessive risk is added to it, like walking on ice or across a busy intersection. The moment that risk is added, it needs to be balanced with safety. Helmets might be an effective safety measure, but they are situationally inconvenient for pedestrians; and rely on too much behavioral discipline.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Walking shouldn't require protection until excessive risk is added to it, like walking ... across a busy intersection. It's next to impossible in the US to walk anywhere useful (transport vs recreation) without crossing a busy intersection.
    - thomastjeffery 4y ago
      Yes, I don't mean to say that's uncommon. My point is that helmets aren't the method generally chosen to mitigate that risk.
- oblio 4y ago
  > Head injuries are also the most common thing that kills drivers I wonder what the correlation is with seatbelt usage. My guess is that most people who die of head injuries due so because they're not wearing a seatbelt, and the head doesn't take kindly to being turned into the tip of a meat missile.
Scarblac 4y ago
Well, per capita is pretty meaningless, as the Dutch ride so much more per person. Anyway there should be more discussion about what kind of bicycle. Racing bikes go fast, your feet are in toeclips, you're in a bent down position - those things are dangerous. And everybody in the Netherlands wears a helmet riding them. E-bikes can go very fast, cars underestimate their speed, people wear helmets. But city or transport bikes, they go very slow (like 15km/h), you sit upright and can easily evade trouble or put a foot to the ground. Falls happen and old people break legs or hips sometimes, but to hit the ground with your head would be very very unusual. Those are the bikes we don't use helmets on. I think most riders in the US ride racing bikes.
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  Toeclips? Which year is it over there? The kids these days are using clipless pedals (stupid name to distinguish them from toe-clips) which connect to a cleat on the bottom of your cycling shoes. Once practised, a twist of your ankle is all that's required to get your foot free. When not practised, you see a cyclist falling over slowly to the side when they forget to unclip at a traffic light.
  - Scarblac 4y ago
    I never ride racing bikes, so forgive me. But it's still always slightly harder to quickly put a foot on the ground than without, I assume?
    - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
      Yes it is. I've only come off a handful of times, but I never noticed my feet being trapped - after a while it becomes almost a subconscious action. Toeclips are considered more dangerous as you often need to loosen the straps first to free your foot. I know one person that broke bones in his foot when riding up a curb at the wrong angle (i.e. wheel slips) when using toeclips. (I also hurt my wrist when using modified toeclips on a unicycle and didn't get my foot free in time). They're still in use, but probably more likely on a fixie than a road/racing bike.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by jjk166 4y ago

jeffbee 4y ago

Head injuries are also the most common thing that kills drivers. Your argument provides an equally strong case that drivers should be required to wear helmets. The hierarchy of helmet need is #1 motorcyclists, #2 drivers, #3 pedestrians–pedestrian head injuries are incredibly common–, and #4 cyclists.

NegativeLatency 4y ago
The first couple of pages in this doc substantiate your claim (for Portland) at least: https://www.portland.gov/sites/default/files/2022/traffic-crash-report-2021.pdf https://www.portland.gov/sites/default/files/2022/traffic-cr...
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Well, that is interesting, but head injuries are often from just falling over from any height, not really from being hit by cars. Most traumatic brain injuries in older adults are from falling from standing height or less.
chollida1 4y ago
> The hierarchy of helmet need is #1 motorcyclists, #2 drivers, #3 pedestrians–pedestrian head injuries are incredibly common–, and #4 cyclists. Interesting. I would have assumed cyclists are second given how fast road bikes go and the fact that they normally ride on major roads where cars speeds are well above 60 km/hr. How did you arrive at your ordering? Was it from an unlinked source?
- jeffbee 4y ago
  I'm just going from national injury stats you can find in CDC WONDER and derived reports. Head injuries among American cyclists are a non-issue, far behind practically all other causes of head injuries, and using government powers to force cyclists to wear helmets is a complete waste of everyone's time. My go-to reference for this is https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10053381/1/Mindell_Cause%20of%20death%20ppr%20R2_18Jun2018_Accepted.pdf https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10053381/1/Mindell_Cau... but if you want to translate it from UK to USA you have to do it yourself.
  - chollida1 4y ago
    I appreciate the link, but I can't tell if those number are per capita or just raw numbers. It would make sense that bike numbers are smaller if they are just the raw numbers given that there are probably 100x more cyclists and 1000x more pedestrians than bikers. If those numbers aren't adjusted for usage then it makes bikes look even more dangerous when you adjust for how often each form of travel is used. As someone who commutes by bike, yikes!!
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  I am both a motorcycle rider and a bicycle rider for decades. While I never-ever got on the motorcycle without a helmet, half of my bicycle rides on the road are without a helmet and the only reason I wear one ever is because it has better venting than a regular cotton cap. I always wear a helmet offroad on the bicycle. The day the helmet will be mandatory on a bicycle I will sell by bikes, it means cycling is too dangerous to be on a street and the government is incapable of protecting cyclists but by mandating helmets. It's like mandating bulletproof vests in Philadelphia or Baltimore instead of solving the gun violence problem in the cities.
  - chollida1 4y ago
    > While I never-ever got on the motorcycle without a helmet, half of my bicycle rides on the road are without a helmet and the only reason I wear one ever is because it has better venting than a regular cotton cap. I always wear a helmet offroad on the bicycle. Interesting, why don't you wear a helmet on the road? I assume the reason you always wear a helmet off road is because of all the falls on trails?
ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
The classic argument is that people should be wearing bike helmets when climbing ladders, using stairs and having a shower (a lot of people slip in the shower). However, when examined logically in terms of head protection, people think that it's only appropriate for cyclists.
thomastjeffery 4y ago
If you are basing on totally detached statistics, maybe.. But what's obviously missing is context. Safety is all about context. Walking shouldn't require protection until excessive risk is added to it, like walking on ice or across a busy intersection. The moment that risk is added, it needs to be balanced with safety. Helmets might be an effective safety measure, but they are situationally inconvenient for pedestrians; and rely on too much behavioral discipline.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Walking shouldn't require protection until excessive risk is added to it, like walking ... across a busy intersection. It's next to impossible in the US to walk anywhere useful (transport vs recreation) without crossing a busy intersection.
  - thomastjeffery 4y ago
    Yes, I don't mean to say that's uncommon. My point is that helmets aren't the method generally chosen to mitigate that risk.
oblio 4y ago
> Head injuries are also the most common thing that kills drivers I wonder what the correlation is with seatbelt usage. My guess is that most people who die of head injuries due so because they're not wearing a seatbelt, and the head doesn't take kindly to being turned into the tip of a meat missile.

Scarblac 4y ago

Well, per capita is pretty meaningless, as the Dutch ride so much more per person. Anyway there should be more discussion about what kind of bicycle. Racing bikes go fast, your feet are in toeclips, you're in a bent down position - those things are dangerous. And everybody in the Netherlands wears a helmet riding them. E-bikes can go very fast, cars underestimate their speed, people wear helmets. But city or transport bikes, they go very slow (like 15km/h), you sit upright and can easily evade trouble or put a foot to the ground. Falls happen and old people break legs or hips sometimes, but to hit the ground with your head would be very very unusual. Those are the bikes we don't use helmets on. I think most riders in the US ride racing bikes.

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
Toeclips? Which year is it over there? The kids these days are using clipless pedals (stupid name to distinguish them from toe-clips) which connect to a cleat on the bottom of your cycling shoes. Once practised, a twist of your ankle is all that's required to get your foot free. When not practised, you see a cyclist falling over slowly to the side when they forget to unclip at a traffic light.
- Scarblac 4y ago
  I never ride racing bikes, so forgive me. But it's still always slightly harder to quickly put a foot on the ground than without, I assume?
  - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
    Yes it is. I've only come off a handful of times, but I never noticed my feet being trapped - after a while it becomes almost a subconscious action. Toeclips are considered more dangerous as you often need to loosen the straps first to free your foot. I know one person that broke bones in his foot when riding up a curb at the wrong angle (i.e. wheel slips) when using toeclips. (I also hurt my wrist when using modified toeclips on a unicycle and didn't get my foot free in time). They're still in use, but probably more likely on a fixie than a road/racing bike.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]