4 ms·

Something similar is implemented in many German airports for EU citizens and it greatly reduces the time to enter the country. I know, this is some kind of pri

Something similar is implemented in many German airports for EU citizens and it greatly reduces the time to enter the country. I know, this is some kind of privacy intrusion but if you are traveling by plane, you have already no privacy left anyway.

djbebs 4y ago
It doesn’t reduce the time to enter the country anymore than blocking your front door unless you pay a toll reduces your time to exit the building.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
In Europe the automated face scan is optional. You can also choose to go to a real customs agent. And the fact that privacy is currently a gone thing in air travel doesn't mean we should keep adding tech that cements the status quo, we could also move back to more privacy-conscious options of course. It's badly needed IMO.
reisse 4y ago
Could you please clarify why automatic face scan is considered as a privacy intrusion compared to face check by border control officer?
- notch656a 4y ago
  Indefinite archival of your face every time you cross? It's ripe for abuse for data mining to claim (via AI, expect witness, whatever) at the exact time of crossing your face exhibited behavior which was consistent with criminals, such as nervousness/anxiety. Border patrol officer can't provide an exact recollection of your face from 10 years ago, so (without camera) if you look nervous at the border this one time it's going to be difficult to look backwards and retroactively determine you looked "nervous" or intoxicated or whatever the other times too. A photograph of your face at the pharmacy or post office taken for your passport is pretty much useless as that sort of evidence as it doesn't show your demeanor at the border.
  - nrb 4y ago
    Isn’t the issue here the conclusions drawn from this supposed evidence? Seems like the kind of thing they wouldn’t bother taking to court if the best they can muster is AI or “expert witness” as they’ll be laughed out of it.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      DHS, who houses TSA, got a federal search warrant in the middle of the night to forcibly have me "internally examined" at a hospital, during which I was confined/detained for 16 hours cuffed and shackled and strip searched, made to perform bodily functions in front of officers etc. After a dog supposedly "alerted" (but actually did not, and the agent even lamented to me that the dog did not). They may not get a conviction but a warrant or arrest will turn your life upside down for at least a few days. And they can get that based on basically nothing (I read the affadavit of my warrant and the claim was 3rd degree anonymous hearsay that didn't list the officer or the dogs name). I am still in debt to this day as debt collectors are chasing me after DHS billed me for their search made on the kind of shoddy "evidence" they obtain from any electronic and other device they have. Every tool they obtain just makes it worse.
      - bodhi_mind 4y ago
        Are you saying the federal government billed you for the cost of their investigating you?
        notch656a 4y ago
        Yes. My story is very similar to this Ashley Cervantes who was also taken to Holy Cross Hospital and billed for a search [0, 1], except in my case they got a warrant which was signed by the judge AFTER (MOST OF) THE SEARCH. Like Ashley, nothing was found and I was billed afterwards. Ashley's case was even more shocking as she was forcibly and intimately penetrated by the doctor "in search of contraband" at the direction of DHS. In my case DHS promised me they would bill it in their name, but they either lied or used the billing as a retaliatory tactic when I convinced (some) of the doctors to discharge me as the doctors had no medical basis on which to search me without consent. The bill itself was written by the private medical entities performing the search at direction of DHS. [0] https://tucson.com/news/local/border/woman-sues-customs-over-body-cavity-search-which-hospital-billed-her-for/article_b11cacb8-326c-11e6-b85d-7becd2e71d17.html https://tucson.com/news/local/border/woman-sues-customs-over... [1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985537/gov.uscourts.azd.985537.1.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985...

djbebs 4y ago

It doesn’t reduce the time to enter the country anymore than blocking your front door unless you pay a toll reduces your time to exit the building.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

In Europe the automated face scan is optional. You can also choose to go to a real customs agent. And the fact that privacy is currently a gone thing in air travel doesn't mean we should keep adding tech that cements the status quo, we could also move back to more privacy-conscious options of course. It's badly needed IMO.

reisse 4y ago

Could you please clarify why automatic face scan is considered as a privacy intrusion compared to face check by border control officer?

notch656a 4y ago
Indefinite archival of your face every time you cross? It's ripe for abuse for data mining to claim (via AI, expect witness, whatever) at the exact time of crossing your face exhibited behavior which was consistent with criminals, such as nervousness/anxiety. Border patrol officer can't provide an exact recollection of your face from 10 years ago, so (without camera) if you look nervous at the border this one time it's going to be difficult to look backwards and retroactively determine you looked "nervous" or intoxicated or whatever the other times too. A photograph of your face at the pharmacy or post office taken for your passport is pretty much useless as that sort of evidence as it doesn't show your demeanor at the border.
- nrb 4y ago
  Isn’t the issue here the conclusions drawn from this supposed evidence? Seems like the kind of thing they wouldn’t bother taking to court if the best they can muster is AI or “expert witness” as they’ll be laughed out of it.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    DHS, who houses TSA, got a federal search warrant in the middle of the night to forcibly have me "internally examined" at a hospital, during which I was confined/detained for 16 hours cuffed and shackled and strip searched, made to perform bodily functions in front of officers etc. After a dog supposedly "alerted" (but actually did not, and the agent even lamented to me that the dog did not). They may not get a conviction but a warrant or arrest will turn your life upside down for at least a few days. And they can get that based on basically nothing (I read the affadavit of my warrant and the claim was 3rd degree anonymous hearsay that didn't list the officer or the dogs name). I am still in debt to this day as debt collectors are chasing me after DHS billed me for their search made on the kind of shoddy "evidence" they obtain from any electronic and other device they have. Every tool they obtain just makes it worse.
    - bodhi_mind 4y ago
      Are you saying the federal government billed you for the cost of their investigating you?
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Yes. My story is very similar to this Ashley Cervantes who was also taken to Holy Cross Hospital and billed for a search [0, 1], except in my case they got a warrant which was signed by the judge AFTER (MOST OF) THE SEARCH. Like Ashley, nothing was found and I was billed afterwards. Ashley's case was even more shocking as she was forcibly and intimately penetrated by the doctor "in search of contraband" at the direction of DHS. In my case DHS promised me they would bill it in their name, but they either lied or used the billing as a retaliatory tactic when I convinced (some) of the doctors to discharge me as the doctors had no medical basis on which to search me without consent. The bill itself was written by the private medical entities performing the search at direction of DHS. [0] https://tucson.com/news/local/border/woman-sues-customs-over-body-cavity-search-which-hospital-billed-her-for/article_b11cacb8-326c-11e6-b85d-7becd2e71d17.html https://tucson.com/news/local/border/woman-sues-customs-over... [1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985537/gov.uscourts.azd.985537.1.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985...