7 ms·

This. I purchased an EV for the daily commute ~3 years ago. A family member got angry and railed about how it was already a failed technology as they likely co

by w0m 4y ago

This. I purchased an EV for the daily commute ~3 years ago. A family member got angry and railed about how it was already a failed technology as they likely couldn't replace their f350 towing 4-wheelers deep into the woods. Infrastructure takes time; and you don't have to solve every use case at once.

me_me_me 4y ago
Sure, but you should stop selling your product like it can do all of those things and more. Its outright lying. Tesla semi was production ready in 2020 - as far as i remember. and was more efficient than train. And whatever other lies musk said back then. Musk is prolific deceiver, I dont trust a single thing coming out of his mouth nor his websites. Also car is often an expense - bigger or smaller - its not a tool that needs to make money. A tool that can make or break a business. Tesla cars are notorious for its expensive repairs. Its a huge cost and risk switching to it.
- w0m 4y ago
  > Sure, but you should stop selling your product like it can do all of those things and more. Its outright lying. This is the response I hate. Detractors say that to argue against any adoption. It's not a claim any sane proponent (Musk is not sane and no one should listen to him) will make. Will it work eventually for (most) use cases? Yea! But likely not everywhere. Just like there are edge cases Gas or Diesel still don't work well. That doesn't mean to ignore potential where it makes sense. I bought a commuter car. That's it. When I bought; was more of a novelty as I didn't know anyone else with anything similar. I repeatedly got angrily shouted at while driving (in a relatively major city), coal-rolled; and heckled by strangers and family members around the dinner table about how poor of a decision I made. 3 years later; I have a nice/fun/convenient commuter car that hasn't needed any maintenance and the trade in is higher than I paid for it. Is it for everyone? No. But that doesn't mean there is a void in value.
  - saxonww 4y ago
    I'd never heard of 'rolling coal' before. It's where you modify a diesel vehicle to dump fuel and emit a lot of smoke from the exhaust. As you might expect, people who do this to their trucks are very proud of it; it's usually a 'statement' against environmentalism. It purposefully wastes diesel which is already much more expensive than gas. It's dangerous for a variety of reasons. It's illegal in the US and parts of Canada, though apparently not well policed. It's stupid.
    - Kirby64 4y ago
      Take a visit to any part of the south. Plenty of coal rollers around there. In some places, driving a sedan is the weird thing (instead of a truck).
    - w0m 4y ago
      Picture you're going down the highway not really paying attention to cars around you outside of general safety. Lifted dodge aggressively pulls infront of you; forcing you to spike breaks before it's engine revs and you're completely blind in a giant smog cloud as the truck spews all over you. It's nasty and some seem to hunt EVs to vomit on.
  - oxplot 4y ago
    > I have a nice/fun/convenient commuter car that hasn't needed any maintenance and the trade in is higher than I paid for it. Is it for everyone? Is it for everyone? No. But that doesn't mean there is a void in value. I'm sure you have reasons for downplaying this, but I would follow this with "and told them, in your face losers", or something to that effect. Saying "saving money and hassle" isn't for everyone is suspicious to say the least. Why wouldn't it be for everyone?
    - w0m 4y ago
      > I'm sure you have reasons for downplaying this, but I would follow this with "and told them, in your face losers", or something to that effect. Why would I ~ever mention it when it's somehow contentious? Family member in question has a truck that costs ~50% more. Why would I care? > Saying "saving money and hassle" isn't for everyone is suspicious to say the least. Why wouldn't it be for everyone? I never told anyone it saved money. I paid ~50% more for an electric Honda Civic. For my area/family group I was a new-tech adopter. I wasn't getting told, "You wasted money!" I was told, "That death trap will explode/catch on fire/not make it through the snow, battery will randomly empty, etc", harangued on the absolute basics on simple fallacies.
- oxplot 4y ago
  You are aware that manufactures face penalties for lying and deception, right? I can't recall Tesla ever being fined for misleading marketing, ever. > Tesla semi was production ready in 2020 I guess you've never missed a deadline. That's not lying. It's miscalculation. > and was more efficient than train A Semi convoy is expected to be cheaper than a train and they re-iterated that in the latest event. No evidence to the contrary so far. > And whatever other lies musk said back then. Promised 500 miles. Delivered 500 miles. Turned the impossible (according to pretty much everyone, from Bill Gates, to CEO of truck making companies who joked that Tesla Semi will be breaking laws of physics) into late. Still not lying. > Musk is prolific deceiver, I dont trust a single thing coming out of his mouth nor his websites. He doesn't have websites. He has companies that have websites. > Tesla cars are notorious for its expensive repairs. Its a huge cost and risk switching to it. Is that why Hertz, that puts the most number of miles on a passenger vehicle has ordered 100000 Teslas, 20% of its global fleet, because it loves to waste money on cost of repair?
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    I can't recall Tesla ever being fined for misleading marketing, ever. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/05/california-dmv-says-tesla-fsd-autopilot-marketing-deceptive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/05/california-dmv-says-tesla-fs...
    - oxplot 4y ago
      You've linked to an "accusation" without any fines. Thanks for wasting my time.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - inferiorhuman 4y ago
        Tesla hasn't been fined by California because a.) the threat was a stop sale not a fine and b.) the process is still underway. I mean hey, Germany told Tesla to stop advertising autopilot because it was deceptive. But the only punishment that counts is monetary, right?
- infecto 4y ago
  I am not a fan of Musk but why are so many people like you? So much hate and ignorance instead of logical arguments.
  - oxplot 4y ago
    Some people are intimidated by success of others, especially if they don't have much going on in their own lives. And some people get excited and motivated by it and want to do more. Those would be the caliber of people who end up working at Tesla or SpaceX or Apple, etc and join the fun.
    - me_me_me 4y ago
      - oxplot 4y ago
        You're definitely in the first group.
    - w0m 4y ago
      I don't think it's as much "Success of others" as it's "Musk is a twatwaffle". I say this as a daily EV driver.
  - staunch 4y ago
    It's really weird isn't it, how at some point Musk became the new focus of Two Minutes of Hate[1]? Sure, there are plenty of valid and harsh criticisms to make about Musk. I'm sure he'd even agree with a lot of them. But the level of obsession people have with hating him is clearly irrational. There's more anti-Musk sentiment than anti-Putin sentiment! It's as if people were left feeling empty by Trump's disappearance and then latched onto Musk as the new target for their manic vitriol. It may be that once these people have become accustomed to hating a public figure in this way that they have trouble letting go of the addiction. It seems a lot like what happened in ancient Athens when one public figure after another would become the target of a citizen mob and then be banished[2] or executed[3]. It also seemed like an addiction in their case. Usually the mob would quickly come to regret their decision, which is likely what would happen if Musk went away. Many of these same people would come to realize the value of having Musk around, despite his flaws, to advance space exploration, pro-environment technology, brain injury technology, etc. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates
Damogran6 4y ago
I am very pro EV...but a little concerned that the one thing we do (Hauling a 5th wheel with a diesel) will get legislated away or cot prohibitive before a reasonable alternative is available. But for the other transportation needs, when I replace the 40mpg commuter, I'm all for it. When we bought the commuter, due to covid math, it was an $8k purchase plus trade. An EV would have been a $25k purchase with trade and I really didn't want to incur that much debt.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  You should probably understand that somebody who uses an efficient vehicle for commuting, and a big truck for real big truck things, is utterly an outlier. Most trucks in america have never left the pavement, and the largest thing they carry is a 40 pound bag of dog food. The vast majority of americans buy the biggest truck they can get credit for and drive it everywhere at 12mpg, usually while boasting "It's got a hemi!" as if that even matters after 1980
  - chrisco255 4y ago
    > the largest thing they carry is a 40 pound bag of dog food No. Sorry. People do work with trucks. Tens of millions of people work in professions that it is necessary. More still do home projects or have hobbies that require high tow capacity like hauling an RV or a boat or other trailers. I drive an F350 to haul my fifth wheel. It actually gets 20 mpg when I'm not towing the RV.
    - w0m 4y ago
      You're misconstruing his comment. Not 'No one needs a Truck'. But, 'Most truck owners don't need a truck". I also will say I don't think anyone is talking about taking the option for owning a Truck away either. There will always be incredibly valid use cases for Trucks (and for a long time still; gas/dies. powered ones). As you gave an anecdotal response, I'll respond in kind. I actually traded in a Tacoma for my EV. I miss the bed ~5x/year. I didn't need a truck; but i liked the option value. I'll likely get another Truck in the next vehicle cycle in a few years.

by w0m 4y ago

me_me_me 4y ago

Sure, but you should stop selling your product like it can do all of those things and more. Its outright lying. Tesla semi was production ready in 2020 - as far as i remember. and was more efficient than train. And whatever other lies musk said back then. Musk is prolific deceiver, I dont trust a single thing coming out of his mouth nor his websites. Also car is often an expense - bigger or smaller - its not a tool that needs to make money. A tool that can make or break a business. Tesla cars are notorious for its expensive repairs. Its a huge cost and risk switching to it.

w0m 4y ago
> Sure, but you should stop selling your product like it can do all of those things and more. Its outright lying. This is the response I hate. Detractors say that to argue against any adoption. It's not a claim any sane proponent (Musk is not sane and no one should listen to him) will make. Will it work eventually for (most) use cases? Yea! But likely not everywhere. Just like there are edge cases Gas or Diesel still don't work well. That doesn't mean to ignore potential where it makes sense. I bought a commuter car. That's it. When I bought; was more of a novelty as I didn't know anyone else with anything similar. I repeatedly got angrily shouted at while driving (in a relatively major city), coal-rolled; and heckled by strangers and family members around the dinner table about how poor of a decision I made. 3 years later; I have a nice/fun/convenient commuter car that hasn't needed any maintenance and the trade in is higher than I paid for it. Is it for everyone? No. But that doesn't mean there is a void in value.
- saxonww 4y ago
  I'd never heard of 'rolling coal' before. It's where you modify a diesel vehicle to dump fuel and emit a lot of smoke from the exhaust. As you might expect, people who do this to their trucks are very proud of it; it's usually a 'statement' against environmentalism. It purposefully wastes diesel which is already much more expensive than gas. It's dangerous for a variety of reasons. It's illegal in the US and parts of Canada, though apparently not well policed. It's stupid.
  - Kirby64 4y ago
    Take a visit to any part of the south. Plenty of coal rollers around there. In some places, driving a sedan is the weird thing (instead of a truck).
  - w0m 4y ago
    Picture you're going down the highway not really paying attention to cars around you outside of general safety. Lifted dodge aggressively pulls infront of you; forcing you to spike breaks before it's engine revs and you're completely blind in a giant smog cloud as the truck spews all over you. It's nasty and some seem to hunt EVs to vomit on.
- oxplot 4y ago
  > I have a nice/fun/convenient commuter car that hasn't needed any maintenance and the trade in is higher than I paid for it. Is it for everyone? Is it for everyone? No. But that doesn't mean there is a void in value. I'm sure you have reasons for downplaying this, but I would follow this with "and told them, in your face losers", or something to that effect. Saying "saving money and hassle" isn't for everyone is suspicious to say the least. Why wouldn't it be for everyone?
  - w0m 4y ago
    > I'm sure you have reasons for downplaying this, but I would follow this with "and told them, in your face losers", or something to that effect. Why would I ~ever mention it when it's somehow contentious? Family member in question has a truck that costs ~50% more. Why would I care? > Saying "saving money and hassle" isn't for everyone is suspicious to say the least. Why wouldn't it be for everyone? I never told anyone it saved money. I paid ~50% more for an electric Honda Civic. For my area/family group I was a new-tech adopter. I wasn't getting told, "You wasted money!" I was told, "That death trap will explode/catch on fire/not make it through the snow, battery will randomly empty, etc", harangued on the absolute basics on simple fallacies.
oxplot 4y ago
You are aware that manufactures face penalties for lying and deception, right? I can't recall Tesla ever being fined for misleading marketing, ever. > Tesla semi was production ready in 2020 I guess you've never missed a deadline. That's not lying. It's miscalculation. > and was more efficient than train A Semi convoy is expected to be cheaper than a train and they re-iterated that in the latest event. No evidence to the contrary so far. > And whatever other lies musk said back then. Promised 500 miles. Delivered 500 miles. Turned the impossible (according to pretty much everyone, from Bill Gates, to CEO of truck making companies who joked that Tesla Semi will be breaking laws of physics) into late. Still not lying. > Musk is prolific deceiver, I dont trust a single thing coming out of his mouth nor his websites. He doesn't have websites. He has companies that have websites. > Tesla cars are notorious for its expensive repairs. Its a huge cost and risk switching to it. Is that why Hertz, that puts the most number of miles on a passenger vehicle has ordered 100000 Teslas, 20% of its global fleet, because it loves to waste money on cost of repair?
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  I can't recall Tesla ever being fined for misleading marketing, ever. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/05/california-dmv-says-tesla-fsd-autopilot-marketing-deceptive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/05/california-dmv-says-tesla-fs...
  - oxplot 4y ago
    You've linked to an "accusation" without any fines. Thanks for wasting my time.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Tesla hasn't been fined by California because a.) the threat was a stop sale not a fine and b.) the process is still underway. I mean hey, Germany told Tesla to stop advertising autopilot because it was deceptive. But the only punishment that counts is monetary, right?
infecto 4y ago
I am not a fan of Musk but why are so many people like you? So much hate and ignorance instead of logical arguments.
- oxplot 4y ago
  Some people are intimidated by success of others, especially if they don't have much going on in their own lives. And some people get excited and motivated by it and want to do more. Those would be the caliber of people who end up working at Tesla or SpaceX or Apple, etc and join the fun.
  - me_me_me 4y ago
    - oxplot 4y ago
      You're definitely in the first group.
  - w0m 4y ago
    I don't think it's as much "Success of others" as it's "Musk is a twatwaffle". I say this as a daily EV driver.
- staunch 4y ago
  It's really weird isn't it, how at some point Musk became the new focus of Two Minutes of Hate[1]? Sure, there are plenty of valid and harsh criticisms to make about Musk. I'm sure he'd even agree with a lot of them. But the level of obsession people have with hating him is clearly irrational. There's more anti-Musk sentiment than anti-Putin sentiment! It's as if people were left feeling empty by Trump's disappearance and then latched onto Musk as the new target for their manic vitriol. It may be that once these people have become accustomed to hating a public figure in this way that they have trouble letting go of the addiction. It seems a lot like what happened in ancient Athens when one public figure after another would become the target of a citizen mob and then be banished[2] or executed[3]. It also seemed like an addiction in their case. Usually the mob would quickly come to regret their decision, which is likely what would happen if Musk went away. Many of these same people would come to realize the value of having Musk around, despite his flaws, to advance space exploration, pro-environment technology, brain injury technology, etc. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates

Damogran6 4y ago

I am very pro EV...but a little concerned that the one thing we do (Hauling a 5th wheel with a diesel) will get legislated away or cot prohibitive before a reasonable alternative is available. But for the other transportation needs, when I replace the 40mpg commuter, I'm all for it. When we bought the commuter, due to covid math, it was an $8k purchase plus trade. An EV would have been a $25k purchase with trade and I really didn't want to incur that much debt.

mrguyorama 4y ago
You should probably understand that somebody who uses an efficient vehicle for commuting, and a big truck for real big truck things, is utterly an outlier. Most trucks in america have never left the pavement, and the largest thing they carry is a 40 pound bag of dog food. The vast majority of americans buy the biggest truck they can get credit for and drive it everywhere at 12mpg, usually while boasting "It's got a hemi!" as if that even matters after 1980
- chrisco255 4y ago
  > the largest thing they carry is a 40 pound bag of dog food No. Sorry. People do work with trucks. Tens of millions of people work in professions that it is necessary. More still do home projects or have hobbies that require high tow capacity like hauling an RV or a boat or other trailers. I drive an F350 to haul my fifth wheel. It actually gets 20 mpg when I'm not towing the RV.
  - w0m 4y ago
    You're misconstruing his comment. Not 'No one needs a Truck'. But, 'Most truck owners don't need a truck". I also will say I don't think anyone is talking about taking the option for owning a Truck away either. There will always be incredibly valid use cases for Trucks (and for a long time still; gas/dies. powered ones). As you gave an anecdotal response, I'll respond in kind. I actually traded in a Tacoma for my EV. I miss the bed ~5x/year. I didn't need a truck; but i liked the option value. I'll likely get another Truck in the next vehicle cycle in a few years.