8 ms·

TSA's facial recognition, being used at 16 airports, may go nationwide next year

30 points by jiwidi 4y ago

exabrial 4y ago
I already opt out of the scanners, _every time _. I’ll gladly opt out of this as well. I’m an old grumpy man and I’ve got time on my hands. Some of y’all should join me.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Do you have a drivers license? A passport? If so, the government already has your photo tied to your identity. Myself personally, I’d rather not take my laptop(s), iPad, keyboard, mouse, etc out of my carry on, take my shoes off and belt and wait in a longer line. For what purpose?
  - Eumenes 4y ago
    So your rationale here is: if you already have a passport/drivers license, you should be okay with facial recognition software being used by the government? Hmm, very convincing.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      The government already has your face on file attached to your identification and is perfectly capable of identifying you using facial recognition. If Google can recognize different images of you based on one image on file, why do you think the government can’t? What do you think you are accomplishing? They also have a record of every flight you take.
      - lm28469 4y ago
        That's why we have laws ??? Just because it's technically feasible it doesn't mean it _should_ be enforced. We could also farm humans to harvest their organs, the technology is here, imagine how many lives we'd save !
        scarface74 4y ago
        Laws against what? Validating that you are who you say you are before you get on plane? Laws against checking whether you are on a no fly list? Every time you pass a police car, they can scan license plates programmatically and if they stop you, they have your ID on file that they can pull up. In most states, your driver’s license is a RealID license approved by the federal government. You are protecting yourself against nothing by not using PreCheck.
      - Eumenes 4y ago
        You don't see a slippery slope with facial recognition technology being used by the federal government? Idk - cross referencing your face in public places, being blamed for a crime you didn't commit. I don't' look like my drivers license photo. It's pretty old - I keep renewing it. Look at how Ring has partnered with police departments. I have no issues with people opting into this, see https://www.clearme.com/ https://www.clearme.com/
        scarface74 4y ago
        They already use license plate recognition when you are driving and there is a clear doctrine of no expectation of privacy in public places. They already have everything they need to do mass surveillance using photo recognition and your photo to do it with if you have a driver’s license and passport. It’s perfectly legal to do so. They can track you via your cellphone using m records that they already get from the carriers. You’ve given up your privacy with the TSA the minute you walked into an airport.
        marssaxman 4y ago
        You keep making this same kind of argument throughout this thread, and I don't understand what you think you are accomplishing. You seem to think that just because some invasive tracking already exists, people should freely accept further expansions of invasive tracking. Why should that be the case? You should feel free to accept whatever comes along, if that's what works for you; but some of us clearly believe that while some is bad, more is even worse, and it is therefore worthwhile to resist.
        scarface74 4y ago
        There is no further tracking. The TSA is already tracking you every time you get on a plane. The government already has the technology, your photo and legally can use the photo they already have of you to use facial recognition. There are already traffic cams that scan your license plate and are used to track you every time you drive. There is no expansion You accomplish nothing by not giving the government your photo again that they already have from both your driver’s license and passport. They can track you when you drive, when you fly, by your cell phone.
  - b3morales 4y ago
    The thing is, as much as I hate all the scanning too, identity is an extremely weak safeguard against what TSA is supposedly guarding. If we could verify that he didn't have any weapons, bombs, etc., Osama bin Laden himself could have taken a flight without anyone else on board being in danger.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      I’m not defending the TSA’s security theatre in any way. I just think it’s silly to worry about the TSA having your photo for facial recognition when they already know everything about you the minute you check in and the government has your photo on file linked to your identity already.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  Right there with you, my friend. Someone has to put some sand in their gears.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    What sand are you putting in the gears exactly? By the time you have gotten on a plane, the TSA has already validated your identity with a photo ID and they already know who you are. You still have to validate yourself using a government issued ID - with your photo. You’re taking everything out of your carry on, taking your belt off and only making life harder for yourself. The only difference with airports that don’t use facisk recognition through TSA Precheck is that they make you scan your drivers license and your ticket instead of just scan your face. For reference in 2022 alone, I’ve flown out of SEA, DAL, SFO, LAX, ATL (my home airport), BNA (3x), CHS, CLT, MCO (2x), CUN, and I have one more flight by the end of the year through MIA. Facial recognition is one less thing I have to worry about fumbling for when I go through an airport. That’s not to mention my not having to take out all of my electronic gear (2 laptops, iPad, portable monitor, keyboard, mouse, battery pack, etc.
    - marssaxman 4y ago
      > You’re taking everything out of your carry on, taking your belt off I'm doing more than just that! I refuse to get pre-check. I bring a paper boarding pass. I neglect to remove liquids and cosmetics from my luggage, so that my bag sometimes has to be hand-inspected and/or run through the scanner twice. I opt out of the backscatter/mill-wave scanner - every time! - so that a TSA employee has to pat me down in person, where I can look them in the eye; whenever feasible, I wear a kilt. > and only making life harder for yourself. Of course. Such is the price of civil disobedience. What other leverage do I have against the TSA? You're looking at this individually, and that's fine - do whatever works for you! But I don't care that much about my personal convenience; I'm trying to push back against the invasive, unnecessary, unjust nuisance the TSA imposes against all of us, and I am doing that through malicious compliance (or quasi-compliance!) with their useless rules.
      - 4y ago
- plusminusplus 4y ago
  I also opt out of the body scanners every time (backscatter or mm wave radiation)
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So exactly how do you get through airport security? Let someone manually fondle you? That’s not more privacy invasive?
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      If someone is going to inspect my junk, I prefer that a) they look me in the eye while they do it b) the government doesn't get a series of images that they can keep forever
      - scarface74 4y ago
        You mean like your drivers license photo and your passport photo which reveal a lot more about you that they already have?
        Rebelgecko 4y ago
        My drivers license photo doesn't include my genitals, the DMV folks were pretty strict about that. Passport cards are actually awesome if you don't have one, doubly so if you don't have a "RealID". You can use them to fly and they don't even list your address.
        scarface74 4y ago
        Passport cards are completely useless for international travel. They need your passport books. Who are gig protecting your address from by having a passport card? You had to give your address to the government to get your passport.
      - exabrial 4y ago
        Precisely. And it takes forever. Forcing them to rethink the entire strategy. The point is non-compliance to inject latency and delays.
hidefacefromtsa 4y ago
I think this is the first step towards technocracy. There was already a report^1 from 2020 stating CBP and TSA do not properly use this technology, or promote the opt-out mechanism. Need a public outcry for this to change. [1] https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-568 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-568
dumpsterlid 4y ago
The TSA and Department Of Homeland security have shown quite thoroughly that they are entirely unworthy of our trust. They aren't the good guys.
- scarface74 4y ago
  As opposed to the rest of the government that already has the same information?
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    They're not the good guys, either.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So what’s the purpose of keeping your photo ID from the same government that already has that information? They already know every time that you get on a flight.
      - marssaxman 4y ago
        Who's talking about keeping government-issued photo ID away from the government? I was talking about the new facial recognition system being discussed in the linked article. I'd prefer not to use it, because I don't trust the people operating it.
        scarface74 4y ago
        You don’t trust the TSA. But you do trust the other parts of the same government? What can the TSA do with your face that every other part of the government can’t do? The TSA can already put you on a “no fly list” and detect when you board a commercial airline regardless of whether you give them your photo ID. Do you think they are unable to get your picture from your passport or your RealID enabled driver’s license? In other words, the only way to get around the TSA is not to fly. The only way to get around the government not being able to use facial recognition is not to have a driver’s license or a passport. What’s the threat model you believe you are protecting yourself from by having just one part of the federal government not having your photo ID to do facial recognition?
jakobov 4y ago
I flew into the USA recently and they didn't even ask for my passport at border control. They just used my face. JFK airport.
- hulitu 4y ago
  Why should they ? They already know everything about you from Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Apple.
- mbg721 4y ago
  Isn't that how the UK monarch always travels? No need for a passport, because the host country knows who he or she is?
class4behavior 4y ago
Law enforcement is no different than a daring or pragmatic lawyer or capitalist, what is allowed or tolerated will always be taken advantage of. As long as the public doesn't instruct its representatives to set red lines on certain topics, even against foreigners, you can't naively expect the administration to not choose the less expensive and more powerful tools, no matter the consequences.
KomoD 4y ago
1984
sschueller 4y ago
I am so glad that some of the cities and cantons in Switzerland are about to ban face recognition in public and many are considering it. [1] [1] https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge in German

30 points by jiwidi 4y ago

I already opt out of the scanners, _every time _. I’ll gladly opt out of this as well. I’m an old grumpy man and I’ve got time on my hands. Some of y’all should join me.

scarface74 4y ago
Do you have a drivers license? A passport? If so, the government already has your photo tied to your identity. Myself personally, I’d rather not take my laptop(s), iPad, keyboard, mouse, etc out of my carry on, take my shoes off and belt and wait in a longer line. For what purpose?
- Eumenes 4y ago
  So your rationale here is: if you already have a passport/drivers license, you should be okay with facial recognition software being used by the government? Hmm, very convincing.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    The government already has your face on file attached to your identification and is perfectly capable of identifying you using facial recognition. If Google can recognize different images of you based on one image on file, why do you think the government can’t? What do you think you are accomplishing? They also have a record of every flight you take.
    - lm28469 4y ago
      That's why we have laws ??? Just because it's technically feasible it doesn't mean it _should_ be enforced. We could also farm humans to harvest their organs, the technology is here, imagine how many lives we'd save !
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Laws against what? Validating that you are who you say you are before you get on plane? Laws against checking whether you are on a no fly list? Every time you pass a police car, they can scan license plates programmatically and if they stop you, they have your ID on file that they can pull up. In most states, your driver’s license is a RealID license approved by the federal government. You are protecting yourself against nothing by not using PreCheck.
    - Eumenes 4y ago
      You don't see a slippery slope with facial recognition technology being used by the federal government? Idk - cross referencing your face in public places, being blamed for a crime you didn't commit. I don't' look like my drivers license photo. It's pretty old - I keep renewing it. Look at how Ring has partnered with police departments. I have no issues with people opting into this, see https://www.clearme.com/ https://www.clearme.com/
      - scarface74 4y ago
        They already use license plate recognition when you are driving and there is a clear doctrine of no expectation of privacy in public places. They already have everything they need to do mass surveillance using photo recognition and your photo to do it with if you have a driver’s license and passport. It’s perfectly legal to do so. They can track you via your cellphone using m records that they already get from the carriers. You’ve given up your privacy with the TSA the minute you walked into an airport.
        marssaxman 4y ago
        You keep making this same kind of argument throughout this thread, and I don't understand what you think you are accomplishing. You seem to think that just because some invasive tracking already exists, people should freely accept further expansions of invasive tracking. Why should that be the case? You should feel free to accept whatever comes along, if that's what works for you; but some of us clearly believe that while some is bad, more is even worse, and it is therefore worthwhile to resist.
        scarface74 4y ago
        There is no further tracking. The TSA is already tracking you every time you get on a plane. The government already has the technology, your photo and legally can use the photo they already have of you to use facial recognition. There are already traffic cams that scan your license plate and are used to track you every time you drive. There is no expansion You accomplish nothing by not giving the government your photo again that they already have from both your driver’s license and passport. They can track you when you drive, when you fly, by your cell phone.
- b3morales 4y ago
  The thing is, as much as I hate all the scanning too, identity is an extremely weak safeguard against what TSA is supposedly guarding. If we could verify that he didn't have any weapons, bombs, etc., Osama bin Laden himself could have taken a flight without anyone else on board being in danger.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I’m not defending the TSA’s security theatre in any way. I just think it’s silly to worry about the TSA having your photo for facial recognition when they already know everything about you the minute you check in and the government has your photo on file linked to your identity already.
marssaxman 4y ago
Right there with you, my friend. Someone has to put some sand in their gears.
- scarface74 4y ago
  What sand are you putting in the gears exactly? By the time you have gotten on a plane, the TSA has already validated your identity with a photo ID and they already know who you are. You still have to validate yourself using a government issued ID - with your photo. You’re taking everything out of your carry on, taking your belt off and only making life harder for yourself. The only difference with airports that don’t use facisk recognition through TSA Precheck is that they make you scan your drivers license and your ticket instead of just scan your face. For reference in 2022 alone, I’ve flown out of SEA, DAL, SFO, LAX, ATL (my home airport), BNA (3x), CHS, CLT, MCO (2x), CUN, and I have one more flight by the end of the year through MIA. Facial recognition is one less thing I have to worry about fumbling for when I go through an airport. That’s not to mention my not having to take out all of my electronic gear (2 laptops, iPad, portable monitor, keyboard, mouse, battery pack, etc.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    > You’re taking everything out of your carry on, taking your belt off I'm doing more than just that! I refuse to get pre-check. I bring a paper boarding pass. I neglect to remove liquids and cosmetics from my luggage, so that my bag sometimes has to be hand-inspected and/or run through the scanner twice. I opt out of the backscatter/mill-wave scanner - every time! - so that a TSA employee has to pat me down in person, where I can look them in the eye; whenever feasible, I wear a kilt. > and only making life harder for yourself. Of course. Such is the price of civil disobedience. What other leverage do I have against the TSA? You're looking at this individually, and that's fine - do whatever works for you! But I don't care that much about my personal convenience; I'm trying to push back against the invasive, unnecessary, unjust nuisance the TSA imposes against all of us, and I am doing that through malicious compliance (or quasi-compliance!) with their useless rules.
    - 4y ago
plusminusplus 4y ago
I also opt out of the body scanners every time (backscatter or mm wave radiation)
- scarface74 4y ago
  So exactly how do you get through airport security? Let someone manually fondle you? That’s not more privacy invasive?
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    If someone is going to inspect my junk, I prefer that a) they look me in the eye while they do it b) the government doesn't get a series of images that they can keep forever
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You mean like your drivers license photo and your passport photo which reveal a lot more about you that they already have?
      - Rebelgecko 4y ago
        My drivers license photo doesn't include my genitals, the DMV folks were pretty strict about that. Passport cards are actually awesome if you don't have one, doubly so if you don't have a "RealID". You can use them to fly and they don't even list your address.
        scarface74 4y ago
        Passport cards are completely useless for international travel. They need your passport books. Who are gig protecting your address from by having a passport card? You had to give your address to the government to get your passport.
    - exabrial 4y ago
      Precisely. And it takes forever. Forcing them to rethink the entire strategy. The point is non-compliance to inject latency and delays.

hidefacefromtsa 4y ago

I think this is the first step towards technocracy. There was already a report^1 from 2020 stating CBP and TSA do not properly use this technology, or promote the opt-out mechanism. Need a public outcry for this to change. [1] https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-568 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-568

dumpsterlid 4y ago

The TSA and Department Of Homeland security have shown quite thoroughly that they are entirely unworthy of our trust. They aren't the good guys.

scarface74 4y ago
As opposed to the rest of the government that already has the same information?
- marssaxman 4y ago
  They're not the good guys, either.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So what’s the purpose of keeping your photo ID from the same government that already has that information? They already know every time that you get on a flight.
    - marssaxman 4y ago
      Who's talking about keeping government-issued photo ID away from the government? I was talking about the new facial recognition system being discussed in the linked article. I'd prefer not to use it, because I don't trust the people operating it.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        You don’t trust the TSA. But you do trust the other parts of the same government? What can the TSA do with your face that every other part of the government can’t do? The TSA can already put you on a “no fly list” and detect when you board a commercial airline regardless of whether you give them your photo ID. Do you think they are unable to get your picture from your passport or your RealID enabled driver’s license? In other words, the only way to get around the TSA is not to fly. The only way to get around the government not being able to use facial recognition is not to have a driver’s license or a passport. What’s the threat model you believe you are protecting yourself from by having just one part of the federal government not having your photo ID to do facial recognition?

jakobov 4y ago

I flew into the USA recently and they didn't even ask for my passport at border control. They just used my face. JFK airport.

hulitu 4y ago
Why should they ? They already know everything about you from Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Apple.
mbg721 4y ago
Isn't that how the UK monarch always travels? No need for a passport, because the host country knows who he or she is?

class4behavior 4y ago

Law enforcement is no different than a daring or pragmatic lawyer or capitalist, what is allowed or tolerated will always be taken advantage of. As long as the public doesn't instruct its representatives to set red lines on certain topics, even against foreigners, you can't naively expect the administration to not choose the less expensive and more powerful tools, no matter the consequences.

KomoD 4y ago

1984

sschueller 4y ago

I am so glad that some of the cities and cantons in Switzerland are about to ban face recognition in public and many are considering it. [1] [1] https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge in German