5 ms·

I get very angry when I read articles on all the heartless injustice people in the USA have to go through with their terrible medical system. Putting patients i

by mahrain 15y ago

I get very angry when I read articles on all the heartless injustice people in the USA have to go through with their terrible medical system. Putting patients in deep debt, going uninsured, people dying because they can't pay for treatments, and now this. I won't give you the primal response I wrote here first and just leave it at "I hope things will improve and become humane again."

anamax 15y ago
> Putting patients in deep debt, The bankruptcies are from living expenses, not medical expenses. Sick people can't work, so housing and so on become a problem. Free unlimited heathcare can't solve that problem. > going uninsured, All poor people in the US are eligible for medicaid. Many don't bother to sign up until they get sick. While they're technically uninsured until then, they're not actually uninsured. > people dying because they can't pay for treatments, Feel free to list any place that will do every possible treatment "for free". (And no "every approved procedure is free" isn't anywhere near "every possible procedure".)If you can't, we're merely arguing about where "for free" stops. There's always a point where it comes out of your pocket. Yes, even under the nationalized system.
- ajross 15y ago
  Some of this is true, some of it not. Certainly for a family making sub-median wage (say a single income of $35k) a big health care expense (a few-day hospital stay costing $30k, say) is not something that can be borne out of savings or income, period. That's true whether or not it's the wage earner who is sick. So saying that bankruptcies are not from medical expenses or that subsidized health care would not prevent them is just flat wrong. The point about medicaid is valid (most Europeans in flame wars like this don't know it exists), though eligibility is complicated and there are many people who need care who don't qualify. The $35k household above, for example, probably isn't poor enough. And the final point is a ridiculous straw man (substituting "every possible treatment" for "treatments"). You should be ashamed of yourself. To be fair, the "people dying because they can't pay" was likewise a distortion though.
  - anamax 15y ago
    > And the final point is a ridiculous straw man (substituting "every possible treatment" for "treatments"). You should be ashamed of yourself. Why? The claim was that someone was dying because they couldn't afford a treatment. That's going to happen under any system that doesn't pay for every possible treatment. Since all systems limit treatment, we're actually arguing about where the limits should be and it's dishonst to suggest otherwise.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  The bankruptcies are from living expenses, not medical expenses. Families can generally house other family members. They can't pay $90k medical bills. All poor people in the US are eligible for medicaid. Many don't bother to sign up until they get sick. How are poor people supposed to know this? I didn't know this. I went to the website and it wasn't the least bit clear. Discoverability is absolutely terrible. The rest of your statements are just silly extrapolations. There will always be edge cases that cannot be fully served.
  - anamax 15y ago
    >> The bankruptcies are from living expenses, not medical expenses. > Families can generally house other family members. They can't pay $90k medical bills. The point is that they don't have to. However, living expenses must be either paid or borrowed from folks who are fairly insistent on being repaid. Hence the bankrupcies, and if you're going to file, you claim everything. >> All poor people in the US are eligible for medicaid. Many don't bother to sign up until they get sick. > How are poor people supposed to know this? Poor people don't have to know it because health care professionals know it. It's how said health care professionals get paid for treating poor people. Also, why do you think that you know what poor people know? When I was poor, I knew things that I don't know now. How is "there are always treatments that won't be paid for" a silly extrapolation? You even (seem to) admit that it's true...
    - georgieporgie 15y ago
      living expenses must be either paid or borrowed from folks who are fairly insistent on being repaid Like I said, most people have family they can move in with in an emergency. Most families, however, do not have $90k to cover a medical bill. Also, why do you think that you know what poor people know? 1) I've been not poor. 2) I'm currently classified as poor. 3) I have vastly greater informational resources at my disposal than most poor people. How is "there are always treatments that won't be paid for" a silly extrapolation? Because it's an utterly pointless statement. Of course there will always be some portion of the populace that cannot be ideally treated. That is no argument whatsoever against doing something to improve the standing of the majority.
- knz 15y ago
  The financial burden is not just for those without insurance or the “poor”. My wife was given a 30% chance in an ICU room earlier this year. Since then we have been through a month in hospital, multiple surgeries, and many doctors appointments. The total cost to date has been over $250,000. Even with insurance we have still paid $10,000 and covered another $10,000 while waiting for reimbursement. The new insurance calendar year starts on January 1st – so we will be paying another $10,000 for a surgery planned in early 2012. Our household income is $30-40k above the US median and we have savings, but it’s amazing how quickly your savings start shrinking when your partner is unable to work and you need to take months of unpaid leave to attend appointments and sit in surgery waiting rooms. Any politician that talks about fostering innovation and entrepreneurship but continues to support the status quo is a fraud. Surely removing the financial and administrative burden of healthcare for business is better than any tax cut congress could come up with?
  - anamax 15y ago
    > Our household income is $30-40k above the US median and we have savings, but it’s amazing how quickly your savings start shrinking when your partner is unable to work and you need to take months of unpaid leave to attend appointments and sit in surgery waiting rooms. Bingo. Heath insurance doesn't address those costs. > Surely removing the financial and administrative burden of healthcare for business is better than any tax cut congress could come up with? And you think that Congress knows how to do this? Medicare fraud is probably close to $100B/year. How are you going to do better AND reduce costs?
Mz 15y ago
I have a "dread disease" and came back from death's door and my approach is way cheaper, more effective and more humane (than conventional medical treatments). It all came out of pocket because the expenses were not "medical", they were for eating better and things like that. I'm now in a real mess financially (complete with eviction notice). The general/typical response from people with the same diagnosis who routinely lament the horrors of what gets done to them medically and the egregiously high expense for medical care: I'm a liar, a charlatan and a snake oil salesman. I don't know what it will take for you to get this Christmas wish fulfilled. But it's a little more complicated than mere scientific/medical research. Peace and happy holidays.

by mahrain 15y ago

anamax 15y ago

> Putting patients in deep debt, The bankruptcies are from living expenses, not medical expenses. Sick people can't work, so housing and so on become a problem. Free unlimited heathcare can't solve that problem. > going uninsured, All poor people in the US are eligible for medicaid. Many don't bother to sign up until they get sick. While they're technically uninsured until then, they're not actually uninsured. > people dying because they can't pay for treatments, Feel free to list any place that will do every possible treatment "for free". (And no "every approved procedure is free" isn't anywhere near "every possible procedure".)If you can't, we're merely arguing about where "for free" stops. There's always a point where it comes out of your pocket. Yes, even under the nationalized system.

ajross 15y ago
Some of this is true, some of it not. Certainly for a family making sub-median wage (say a single income of $35k) a big health care expense (a few-day hospital stay costing $30k, say) is not something that can be borne out of savings or income, period. That's true whether or not it's the wage earner who is sick. So saying that bankruptcies are not from medical expenses or that subsidized health care would not prevent them is just flat wrong. The point about medicaid is valid (most Europeans in flame wars like this don't know it exists), though eligibility is complicated and there are many people who need care who don't qualify. The $35k household above, for example, probably isn't poor enough. And the final point is a ridiculous straw man (substituting "every possible treatment" for "treatments"). You should be ashamed of yourself. To be fair, the "people dying because they can't pay" was likewise a distortion though.
- anamax 15y ago
  > And the final point is a ridiculous straw man (substituting "every possible treatment" for "treatments"). You should be ashamed of yourself. Why? The claim was that someone was dying because they couldn't afford a treatment. That's going to happen under any system that doesn't pay for every possible treatment. Since all systems limit treatment, we're actually arguing about where the limits should be and it's dishonst to suggest otherwise.
georgieporgie 15y ago
The bankruptcies are from living expenses, not medical expenses. Families can generally house other family members. They can't pay $90k medical bills. All poor people in the US are eligible for medicaid. Many don't bother to sign up until they get sick. How are poor people supposed to know this? I didn't know this. I went to the website and it wasn't the least bit clear. Discoverability is absolutely terrible. The rest of your statements are just silly extrapolations. There will always be edge cases that cannot be fully served.
- anamax 15y ago
  >> The bankruptcies are from living expenses, not medical expenses. > Families can generally house other family members. They can't pay $90k medical bills. The point is that they don't have to. However, living expenses must be either paid or borrowed from folks who are fairly insistent on being repaid. Hence the bankrupcies, and if you're going to file, you claim everything. >> All poor people in the US are eligible for medicaid. Many don't bother to sign up until they get sick. > How are poor people supposed to know this? Poor people don't have to know it because health care professionals know it. It's how said health care professionals get paid for treating poor people. Also, why do you think that you know what poor people know? When I was poor, I knew things that I don't know now. How is "there are always treatments that won't be paid for" a silly extrapolation? You even (seem to) admit that it's true...
  - georgieporgie 15y ago
    living expenses must be either paid or borrowed from folks who are fairly insistent on being repaid Like I said, most people have family they can move in with in an emergency. Most families, however, do not have $90k to cover a medical bill. Also, why do you think that you know what poor people know? 1) I've been not poor. 2) I'm currently classified as poor. 3) I have vastly greater informational resources at my disposal than most poor people. How is "there are always treatments that won't be paid for" a silly extrapolation? Because it's an utterly pointless statement. Of course there will always be some portion of the populace that cannot be ideally treated. That is no argument whatsoever against doing something to improve the standing of the majority.
knz 15y ago
The financial burden is not just for those without insurance or the “poor”. My wife was given a 30% chance in an ICU room earlier this year. Since then we have been through a month in hospital, multiple surgeries, and many doctors appointments. The total cost to date has been over $250,000. Even with insurance we have still paid $10,000 and covered another $10,000 while waiting for reimbursement. The new insurance calendar year starts on January 1st – so we will be paying another $10,000 for a surgery planned in early 2012. Our household income is $30-40k above the US median and we have savings, but it’s amazing how quickly your savings start shrinking when your partner is unable to work and you need to take months of unpaid leave to attend appointments and sit in surgery waiting rooms. Any politician that talks about fostering innovation and entrepreneurship but continues to support the status quo is a fraud. Surely removing the financial and administrative burden of healthcare for business is better than any tax cut congress could come up with?
- anamax 15y ago
  > Our household income is $30-40k above the US median and we have savings, but it’s amazing how quickly your savings start shrinking when your partner is unable to work and you need to take months of unpaid leave to attend appointments and sit in surgery waiting rooms. Bingo. Heath insurance doesn't address those costs. > Surely removing the financial and administrative burden of healthcare for business is better than any tax cut congress could come up with? And you think that Congress knows how to do this? Medicare fraud is probably close to $100B/year. How are you going to do better AND reduce costs?

Mz 15y ago

I have a "dread disease" and came back from death's door and my approach is way cheaper, more effective and more humane (than conventional medical treatments). It all came out of pocket because the expenses were not "medical", they were for eating better and things like that. I'm now in a real mess financially (complete with eviction notice). The general/typical response from people with the same diagnosis who routinely lament the horrors of what gets done to them medically and the egregiously high expense for medical care: I'm a liar, a charlatan and a snake oil salesman. I don't know what it will take for you to get this Christmas wish fulfilled. But it's a little more complicated than mere scientific/medical research. Peace and happy holidays.