9 ms·

Demand bicycle safe cities! Helmets should be optional. Taking risks should be legal. > Just wear a helmet. You do you. Next up we gonna enforce pedestrians

by cies 4y ago

Demand bicycle safe cities! Helmets should be optional. Taking risks should be legal. > Just wear a helmet. You do you. Next up we gonna enforce pedestrians to wear air-bag suits "for their own safety", forbid roller skating, etc. Disclaimer: living in the Netherlands.

alkonaut 4y ago
> Taking risks should be legal What's the difference from a seat belt law? As long as I'm paying for everyone elses' healthcare (which is the norm in developed countries), their personal risk taking is my concern. Even in places without publically funded healthcare, everyone pays for others' risks through premiums so the difference isn't as big as it would seem.
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  Bicycling makes you fitter and healthier, reducing overall disease burden, as well as providing mental health benefits, reduced traffic, consequently reduced air pollution which also is a major win for public health. Cars literally don't do any of those things. They're convenient (at least when your city isn't subject to awful traffic) and that's it.
- cies 4y ago
  > What's the difference from a seat belt law? You found a risk reducing law that probably does make sense. Very small investment (Volvo relinquished the patent, thanks Volvo) and very large benefit. But this "their personal risk taking is my concern" argument of yours makes me shiver. I'd never want someone else's risk taking to be my concern: I've got more important stuff to attend to, thank God.
  - tsukikage 4y ago
    All right, let's suppose for a minute that self-interest is literally the only thing to be considered. Your personal risk preferences impact me in a variety of ways: * my cost of living goes up, because damage control is much more expensive than prevention; someone has to pay for it, and dead people can't. * my personal risk goes up, because resources I might need such as emergency doctors' time are occupied dealing with the consequences of your decisions instead. * my quality of life goes down, e.g. I have to spend more time waiting in traffic jams while the bodies are scraped off the roads. If you take your risks in a space I am forced to share with you, whether physical, societal or economical, your choices affect me.
    - cies 4y ago
      And we will live in the most boring Brave New World where all danger is eliminated because of this reasoning. Sports will be gone, only the gym survives as it has the lowest risk factor. No more alcohol and drugs. And there will be condom police checking up on you when you cozy up with anyone except your wife. Sure, go and try to make it happen. But I will also try to subvert it :)
- cies 4y ago
  There was a commedian saying cars should be make more dangerous for the driver: "that will teach 'm". He claimed car's driver safety features made them less safe for everyone else, as driving like an idiot had little negative outcome for the driver. "Put a sharp pin in the steering wheel and forbid belts and airbags." he jokingly argued. There's quite some truth to it.
  - tsukikage 4y ago
    Dead people can't learn.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      But they wouldn't be dead, because no one would be brave/stupid enough to drive such a car at high speeds while texting on their phone.
      - mbg721 4y ago
        I dunno, people are generally wired to ignore high-severity but low-frequency bad events. You can drive like an idiot for a long time and have nothing happen.
- mughinn 4y ago
  Seat belts laws also shouldn't exist You also shouldn't be paying for everyone elses' healthcare
  - lukas099 4y ago
    Interesting take, so we should allow people to ride without helmets and then when they're bleeding out on the street we should just leave them there if they can't pay.
    - mughinn 4y ago
      Yes, we should allow people to ride without helmets. No, I'm not saying we should just leave them there to die.
      - lukas099 4y ago
        But if they can't pay, society will have to. Granted, I guess this isn't technically paying for everyone else's healthcare.
        mughinn 4y ago
        You can contribute voluntarily to charities to help people pay medical debt, to charities that provide free medical assistance or there could be free/less expensive medical treatment given by universities as training to medical students A priori, you don't know if someone won't be able to pay for treatment, so there's no reason someone should be left to die The important part is that things should be voluntary and not forced
        lukas099 4y ago
        And if charities/universities are unwilling or unable to give all of the emergency medicine needed?
        4y ago
tsukikage 4y ago
Motorists and street furniture in bike lanes are not the only things helmets protect you from. Pedestrians, other cyclists, mechanical failure, rubbish in the road, oil patch, black ice; any number of things can result in you hitting the ground even when entirely separated from motor vehicles. Meanwhile, more and more people are using e-bikes and spending a larger proportion of their time on the bike doing 20-30mph or more. Hitting concrete with your body at speed is not going to be great for you regardless of the exact cause or exact body part. Just wear the helmet, pity's sake. Why be a meat crayon?
- cies 4y ago
  You do you. I want helmets for those who want helmets. I'm fine without, thank you for being considerate. The article makes a point, I agree with: don't put barriers on cycling. I agree wholeheartedly. And I have trouble with most safety laws: they can be recommendations, but not laws (yes seat belt was mentioned, I know, I know).

by cies 4y ago

alkonaut 4y ago

> Taking risks should be legal What's the difference from a seat belt law? As long as I'm paying for everyone elses' healthcare (which is the norm in developed countries), their personal risk taking is my concern. Even in places without publically funded healthcare, everyone pays for others' risks through premiums so the difference isn't as big as it would seem.

bigDinosaur 4y ago
Bicycling makes you fitter and healthier, reducing overall disease burden, as well as providing mental health benefits, reduced traffic, consequently reduced air pollution which also is a major win for public health. Cars literally don't do any of those things. They're convenient (at least when your city isn't subject to awful traffic) and that's it.
cies 4y ago
> What's the difference from a seat belt law? You found a risk reducing law that probably does make sense. Very small investment (Volvo relinquished the patent, thanks Volvo) and very large benefit. But this "their personal risk taking is my concern" argument of yours makes me shiver. I'd never want someone else's risk taking to be my concern: I've got more important stuff to attend to, thank God.
- tsukikage 4y ago
  All right, let's suppose for a minute that self-interest is literally the only thing to be considered. Your personal risk preferences impact me in a variety of ways: * my cost of living goes up, because damage control is much more expensive than prevention; someone has to pay for it, and dead people can't. * my personal risk goes up, because resources I might need such as emergency doctors' time are occupied dealing with the consequences of your decisions instead. * my quality of life goes down, e.g. I have to spend more time waiting in traffic jams while the bodies are scraped off the roads. If you take your risks in a space I am forced to share with you, whether physical, societal or economical, your choices affect me.
  - cies 4y ago
    And we will live in the most boring Brave New World where all danger is eliminated because of this reasoning. Sports will be gone, only the gym survives as it has the lowest risk factor. No more alcohol and drugs. And there will be condom police checking up on you when you cozy up with anyone except your wife. Sure, go and try to make it happen. But I will also try to subvert it :)
cies 4y ago
There was a commedian saying cars should be make more dangerous for the driver: "that will teach 'm". He claimed car's driver safety features made them less safe for everyone else, as driving like an idiot had little negative outcome for the driver. "Put a sharp pin in the steering wheel and forbid belts and airbags." he jokingly argued. There's quite some truth to it.
- tsukikage 4y ago
  Dead people can't learn.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    But they wouldn't be dead, because no one would be brave/stupid enough to drive such a car at high speeds while texting on their phone.
    - mbg721 4y ago
      I dunno, people are generally wired to ignore high-severity but low-frequency bad events. You can drive like an idiot for a long time and have nothing happen.
mughinn 4y ago
Seat belts laws also shouldn't exist You also shouldn't be paying for everyone elses' healthcare
- lukas099 4y ago
  Interesting take, so we should allow people to ride without helmets and then when they're bleeding out on the street we should just leave them there if they can't pay.
  - mughinn 4y ago
    Yes, we should allow people to ride without helmets. No, I'm not saying we should just leave them there to die.
    - lukas099 4y ago
      But if they can't pay, society will have to. Granted, I guess this isn't technically paying for everyone else's healthcare.
      - mughinn 4y ago
        You can contribute voluntarily to charities to help people pay medical debt, to charities that provide free medical assistance or there could be free/less expensive medical treatment given by universities as training to medical students A priori, you don't know if someone won't be able to pay for treatment, so there's no reason someone should be left to die The important part is that things should be voluntary and not forced
        lukas099 4y ago
        And if charities/universities are unwilling or unable to give all of the emergency medicine needed?
        4y ago

tsukikage 4y ago

Motorists and street furniture in bike lanes are not the only things helmets protect you from. Pedestrians, other cyclists, mechanical failure, rubbish in the road, oil patch, black ice; any number of things can result in you hitting the ground even when entirely separated from motor vehicles. Meanwhile, more and more people are using e-bikes and spending a larger proportion of their time on the bike doing 20-30mph or more. Hitting concrete with your body at speed is not going to be great for you regardless of the exact cause or exact body part. Just wear the helmet, pity's sake. Why be a meat crayon?

cies 4y ago
You do you. I want helmets for those who want helmets. I'm fine without, thank you for being considerate. The article makes a point, I agree with: don't put barriers on cycling. I agree wholeheartedly. And I have trouble with most safety laws: they can be recommendations, but not laws (yes seat belt was mentioned, I know, I know).