4 ms·

The console bans should be investigated cause that’s a strong signal that the software is just wrong.

AmericanChopper 4y ago
Not as strong As you might think. The Cronus is a very strong cheating device for consoles, and it’s ubiquitous enough to be sold in some big-box retail stores.
- SkyPuncher 4y ago
  I don't think it's reasonable to group Cronus in with software based cheats. Cronus certainly makes many things easier, but it does not give you magic. You still have to be decent at the game for a Cronus to be of any help.
  - AmericanChopper 4y ago
    Cronus gives a strong advantage to the cheater, basically turning recoil off. Sure there are more powerful cheats, but cheating is cheating and if you’re going to ban cheaters then Cronus users should rightfully be included in that. “This particular cheat only helps people that are already good at the game” is also an ancient trope as far as rationalizing cheating goes, so hope you’re enjoying your Cronus lol.
    - SkyPuncher 4y ago
      I don't have a Cronus. Frankly, I don't really need one or care to have one. Even with a Cronus, you still need to be able to aim and place your shots. It certainly helps you land more shots, but basic tactics easily overcome a Cronus.
      - philistine 4y ago
        Said like someone who uses a Cronus. If cheating at a tournament is defined as using a Cronus, then it's cheating.
        SkyPuncher 4y ago
        I'm really surprised to see these repeated baseless accusations on HN. I can assure you that I've never used or own a Cronus. I have a 0.89 KD in WZ. I'd be much better with a Cronus. I don't disagree that a Cronus is cheating. I'm simply stating there are different levels of cheating. Since Cronus is hardware it's both hard to detect and limited on its impact. Cronus also don't let you magically wall people or auto-headshot. Software based cheats are significantly more impactful to the game play. Software cheaters can see you through walls, auto-aim, auto-shoot, auto-move. There's simply no way to counter someone who knows exactly where you are and can hit a perfect shot every time. Activision should address both, but software cheating is a far larger problem.
        themacguffinman 4y ago
        In this scenario it sounds like Activision is addressing both by treating them both as a group. Not sure why you're trying to draw a distinction for actual Cronus use. If Cronus is cheating, it doesn't matter which cheat is a larger problem or whether there are different levels of cheating, the treatment for cheaters is the same: ban them.
        SkyPuncher 4y ago
        I think it's reasonable for Activision to treat them as a group. I know I'm arm-chairing, but I think it's worth treating them as distinct. Hardware based cheats, like recoil control, can be countered with in-game mechanics. For example, enforcing a minimum amount of recoil and using an RNG recoil pattern. My understanding is Cronus rely on grossly predictable recoil patterns. Software cheating extends well beyond recoil control and requires active detection mechanisms.
        4y ago
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  Console anti-cheat wouldn't be able to detect the Cronus since it's just modifying controller inputs to help the user. It isn't software running on the console, which is what anti-cheat generally protects against.
  - AmericanChopper 4y ago
    Monitoring input is how modern anti-cheats work. They all still implement the spyware approach, but that’s really the lowest hanging fruit.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      What? No. Practically all anti cheat for a long time has primarily worked by monitoring what is running on the computer/device, and ensuring the integrity of the game and its data. You don’t need anti-cheat with deep system hooks to monitor input. That can be done from the game itself trivially.
      - TillE 4y ago
        So how would you expect console anti-cheat to work, given that modern consoles are pretty securely locked down and don't require the rootkit approach? I would be surprised if they aren't using heuristics on input.
        mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Denuvo, one of the primary cross-platform anti-cheat systems, deals with ensuring the integrity of offline progress, obfuscation and encryption to prevent data mining, and emulator prevention. In their own words: > Protect sensitive game logic to reduce data mining and detect peripherals that give the cheater an unfair gameplay advantage. https://irdeto.com/denuvo/console-games-protection/ https://irdeto.com/denuvo/console-games-protection/ They also have a common list of cheats on the general information page, none of which are really related to Cronus.
    - 4y ago
- xeyownt 4y ago
  Banning based on user input seems the worst idea ever. Say hello to false positive. Also, in near future you'll probably have AI player that will beat most human players. If you ban based on that, you'll defacto put a upper bound to human skill you'll accept in the game, so competition will be restricted to not-so-good players.

Not as strong As you might think. The Cronus is a very strong cheating device for consoles, and it’s ubiquitous enough to be sold in some big-box retail stores.

SkyPuncher 4y ago
I don't think it's reasonable to group Cronus in with software based cheats. Cronus certainly makes many things easier, but it does not give you magic. You still have to be decent at the game for a Cronus to be of any help.
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  Cronus gives a strong advantage to the cheater, basically turning recoil off. Sure there are more powerful cheats, but cheating is cheating and if you’re going to ban cheaters then Cronus users should rightfully be included in that. “This particular cheat only helps people that are already good at the game” is also an ancient trope as far as rationalizing cheating goes, so hope you’re enjoying your Cronus lol.
  - SkyPuncher 4y ago
    I don't have a Cronus. Frankly, I don't really need one or care to have one. Even with a Cronus, you still need to be able to aim and place your shots. It certainly helps you land more shots, but basic tactics easily overcome a Cronus.
    - philistine 4y ago
      Said like someone who uses a Cronus. If cheating at a tournament is defined as using a Cronus, then it's cheating.
      - SkyPuncher 4y ago
        I'm really surprised to see these repeated baseless accusations on HN. I can assure you that I've never used or own a Cronus. I have a 0.89 KD in WZ. I'd be much better with a Cronus. I don't disagree that a Cronus is cheating. I'm simply stating there are different levels of cheating. Since Cronus is hardware it's both hard to detect and limited on its impact. Cronus also don't let you magically wall people or auto-headshot. Software based cheats are significantly more impactful to the game play. Software cheaters can see you through walls, auto-aim, auto-shoot, auto-move. There's simply no way to counter someone who knows exactly where you are and can hit a perfect shot every time. Activision should address both, but software cheating is a far larger problem.
        themacguffinman 4y ago
        In this scenario it sounds like Activision is addressing both by treating them both as a group. Not sure why you're trying to draw a distinction for actual Cronus use. If Cronus is cheating, it doesn't matter which cheat is a larger problem or whether there are different levels of cheating, the treatment for cheaters is the same: ban them.
        SkyPuncher 4y ago
        I think it's reasonable for Activision to treat them as a group. I know I'm arm-chairing, but I think it's worth treating them as distinct. Hardware based cheats, like recoil control, can be countered with in-game mechanics. For example, enforcing a minimum amount of recoil and using an RNG recoil pattern. My understanding is Cronus rely on grossly predictable recoil patterns. Software cheating extends well beyond recoil control and requires active detection mechanisms.
        4y ago
mynameisvlad 4y ago
Console anti-cheat wouldn't be able to detect the Cronus since it's just modifying controller inputs to help the user. It isn't software running on the console, which is what anti-cheat generally protects against.
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  Monitoring input is how modern anti-cheats work. They all still implement the spyware approach, but that’s really the lowest hanging fruit.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    What? No. Practically all anti cheat for a long time has primarily worked by monitoring what is running on the computer/device, and ensuring the integrity of the game and its data. You don’t need anti-cheat with deep system hooks to monitor input. That can be done from the game itself trivially.
    - TillE 4y ago
      So how would you expect console anti-cheat to work, given that modern consoles are pretty securely locked down and don't require the rootkit approach? I would be surprised if they aren't using heuristics on input.
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Denuvo, one of the primary cross-platform anti-cheat systems, deals with ensuring the integrity of offline progress, obfuscation and encryption to prevent data mining, and emulator prevention. In their own words: > Protect sensitive game logic to reduce data mining and detect peripherals that give the cheater an unfair gameplay advantage. https://irdeto.com/denuvo/console-games-protection/ https://irdeto.com/denuvo/console-games-protection/ They also have a common list of cheats on the general information page, none of which are really related to Cronus.
  - 4y ago
xeyownt 4y ago
Banning based on user input seems the worst idea ever. Say hello to false positive. Also, in near future you'll probably have AI player that will beat most human players. If you ban based on that, you'll defacto put a upper bound to human skill you'll accept in the game, so competition will be restricted to not-so-good players.