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I disagree with Unions being included in the second group. Because their job is actually to make deals for the first group with the 2nd group. Their pay can onl

by xracy 4y ago

I disagree with Unions being included in the second group. Because their job is actually to make deals for the first group with the 2nd group. Their pay can only go up by negotiating better contracts for union card holders. I suspect if you got rid of them, teachers would get less of the pie than they currently hold.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
The unions end up forming their own bureaucracy, which grows according to the iron law. It's not the same instance of bureaucratic capture as happens to the school (or school district), but it does happen within the union itself.
- layoric 4y ago
  And sadly union bureaucracies have taken the form of originally pro-worker political parties that no longer hold workers best interests ahead of their own. Example, Australian Labor Party, currently in power, and the first to proclaim its "pro-business" credentials.
rablackburn 4y ago
The issue is the Iron Law applies to the unions as well. Given enough time unions tend towards bureaucracies dedicated to serving the Union, not its members. Frankly I think saying the Iron Law is inevitable is a little too pessimistic for me, but it’s definitely something that needs to be consciously monitored/managed.
- xracy 4y ago
  Right, but ultimately a union is still a democracy, and the bureaucracy has to stay in power. That seems a lot harder to do if you don't actually have your constituents interests at hand. I will grant that in a large enough union I could see bureaucracy being a problem, like that. But also the fact that unions have been gutted for power (in the US) means that union officials aren't nearly as bad as the equivalent groups in a more powerful institution. Also it means that they're still in the stage where most unions could stay vigilant to avoid it.
  - sirmarksalot 4y ago
    Unions can run on autopilot for a long time, though, and their management can coast to victory if the membership is sufficiently disengaged. Old unions in particular can have a silent majority problem, where most of their members are just trying to do their job and get a paycheck, and will never even hear the people who are trying to get involved and fix things. Fixing a union involves a lot of the same work as starting one in the first place, with a lot of the same difficulties.
  - antiatheist 4y ago
    Just like the USA is a democracy.
    - xracy 4y ago
      The USA is not a democracy... It's a representative democracy i.e. a republic.
naniwaduni 4y ago
It doesn't say unions, it says union officials—i.e., the bureaucracy of the union.
jasonzemos 4y ago
> Their pay can only go up by negotiating better contracts for union card holders. Look no further than Martin Scorsese's The Irishman for an exegesis of other ways union leaders can increase their pay and solidify their power at little to negative benefit for union members. What happened with Jimmy Hoffa doesn't categorically indict all unions themselves, but it illuminates the continuum of soft "influence" and hard corruption. Where that doesn't exist, the pressure is there by interested parties to create it. The odds are in the favor of amassing power and wealth and strengthening a bureaucracy to further serve itself toward those ends. The iron law is upheld.
- xracy 4y ago
  Are you holding up a fictional movie as a source for why unions don't negotiate on behalf of their card holders? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that Unions aren't the big scary bureaucracy Corporations would have you believe. That's the corporations right now, and they're so terrified of unions, that they're projecting their own image onto unions.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    I think The Irishman is closer to historical drama than fiction, but given the subject matter, it's hard to imagine you'll ever get the whole truth from those involved.
    - xracy 4y ago
      One could maybe say that about the book it's based on... But Hollywood has a bad record of "based on a true story." And as you point out, the whole truth seems like it might admit to a lot of crimes that could be used to prosecute people.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        You do not need to look at fiction. Look at almost any taxpayer funded pension plan. It will have tiers of benefits, where the older employees have better benefits than younger employees. The older employees also happen to be the union leaders.
sirmarksalot 4y ago
A union is a power structure like any other, and unions get corrupted just like anything else. They need to be maintained by their members, otherwise they will prioritize the needs of their administration over the needs of their members. It's still better to have a union than to not have a union, but having a union doesn't magically solve everything. Try looking up what a "dues strike" is.

by xracy 4y ago

pclmulqdq 4y ago

The unions end up forming their own bureaucracy, which grows according to the iron law. It's not the same instance of bureaucratic capture as happens to the school (or school district), but it does happen within the union itself.

layoric 4y ago
And sadly union bureaucracies have taken the form of originally pro-worker political parties that no longer hold workers best interests ahead of their own. Example, Australian Labor Party, currently in power, and the first to proclaim its "pro-business" credentials.

rablackburn 4y ago

The issue is the Iron Law applies to the unions as well. Given enough time unions tend towards bureaucracies dedicated to serving the Union, not its members. Frankly I think saying the Iron Law is inevitable is a little too pessimistic for me, but it’s definitely something that needs to be consciously monitored/managed.

xracy 4y ago
Right, but ultimately a union is still a democracy, and the bureaucracy has to stay in power. That seems a lot harder to do if you don't actually have your constituents interests at hand. I will grant that in a large enough union I could see bureaucracy being a problem, like that. But also the fact that unions have been gutted for power (in the US) means that union officials aren't nearly as bad as the equivalent groups in a more powerful institution. Also it means that they're still in the stage where most unions could stay vigilant to avoid it.
- sirmarksalot 4y ago
  Unions can run on autopilot for a long time, though, and their management can coast to victory if the membership is sufficiently disengaged. Old unions in particular can have a silent majority problem, where most of their members are just trying to do their job and get a paycheck, and will never even hear the people who are trying to get involved and fix things. Fixing a union involves a lot of the same work as starting one in the first place, with a lot of the same difficulties.
- antiatheist 4y ago
  Just like the USA is a democracy.
  - xracy 4y ago
    The USA is not a democracy... It's a representative democracy i.e. a republic.

naniwaduni 4y ago

It doesn't say unions, it says union officials—i.e., the bureaucracy of the union.

jasonzemos 4y ago

> Their pay can only go up by negotiating better contracts for union card holders. Look no further than Martin Scorsese's The Irishman for an exegesis of other ways union leaders can increase their pay and solidify their power at little to negative benefit for union members. What happened with Jimmy Hoffa doesn't categorically indict all unions themselves, but it illuminates the continuum of soft "influence" and hard corruption. Where that doesn't exist, the pressure is there by interested parties to create it. The odds are in the favor of amassing power and wealth and strengthening a bureaucracy to further serve itself toward those ends. The iron law is upheld.

xracy 4y ago
Are you holding up a fictional movie as a source for why unions don't negotiate on behalf of their card holders? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that Unions aren't the big scary bureaucracy Corporations would have you believe. That's the corporations right now, and they're so terrified of unions, that they're projecting their own image onto unions.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I think The Irishman is closer to historical drama than fiction, but given the subject matter, it's hard to imagine you'll ever get the whole truth from those involved.
  - xracy 4y ago
    One could maybe say that about the book it's based on... But Hollywood has a bad record of "based on a true story." And as you point out, the whole truth seems like it might admit to a lot of crimes that could be used to prosecute people.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      You do not need to look at fiction. Look at almost any taxpayer funded pension plan. It will have tiers of benefits, where the older employees have better benefits than younger employees. The older employees also happen to be the union leaders.

sirmarksalot 4y ago

A union is a power structure like any other, and unions get corrupted just like anything else. They need to be maintained by their members, otherwise they will prioritize the needs of their administration over the needs of their members. It's still better to have a union than to not have a union, but having a union doesn't magically solve everything. Try looking up what a "dues strike" is.