5 ms·

Any bureaucracy seems to tend towards making the system of bureaucracy more efficient for those managing it, not those working under it. Schools, K through uni

Any bureaucracy seems to tend towards making the system of bureaucracy more efficient for those managing it, not those working under it. Schools, K through university, all suffer from this.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
One of the worst parts of this is that the bureaucrats in school systems are so smug about it. They go yelling "academic freedom" when you threaten to cut their job, while clamping down on the "acceptable" fields of study for faculty. These administrators are the real threats to academic freedom. That said, I think the entire US university system needs a rethink, so I'm not upset that these bureaucrats are accelerating the process of burning it to the ground.
- salamo 4y ago
  From the article, > The founders of the democratic tradition understood that institutions are prone to corruption. This does not mean that they cease to operate. It means, to the contrary, that they continue to function, but in ways that no longer serve their original purpose. It's not clear to me that universities will burn to the ground. They can probably stumble along for decades down the same path if nothing changes. No, their incentives need to be corrected.
  - User23 4y ago
    Lindy[1] suggests that Harvard will outlive the United States. Edit: [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
    - naniwaduni 4y ago
      Harvard is older than the US, and frankly does at least seem better-aligned to its original goals (training Puritan ministers!) than the US does.
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      I think when people think about universities, they think of Harvard and Stanford, but there are a lot more schools like (for example) Middle Tennessee University. These are schools that extract Harvard-like rents without the prestige or quality, and these will be the ones that go down. Harvard and its ilk will likely survive the next millennium.
    - abecode 4y ago
      If you ignore the whole education thing, universities are organizations that aim to preserve their own existence (like religions) rather than return money to shareholders (like companies)
trentnix 4y ago
Precisely as Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy predicts: First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration. Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc. The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  The only counter force I'm aware of is competition. Organization A that is 80% devoted to serve it's bureaucracy will be outcompeted by Organization B which is only at 40%, presumably because it's younger. That only works if they compete on productive end results, and I'm not sure how true that is for US universities.
  - Ieghaehia9 4y ago
    Democracy combined with local units significantly valuing their autonomy also seems to work, e.g. the International Typographical Union example from Union Democracy.
  - buitreVirtual 4y ago
    That's usually the problem. There is virtually no competition within a state university system. Even in open markets, incumbents are bloated with bureaucracy and politics but succeed by digging trenches around them to keep new players out.
    - bumby 4y ago
      Universities have already lost their stranglehold on access to information. Now they focus on their monopoly of credentialism. If they lose that too they might face real competition and adjust course. There may be both bottom-up and top-down approaches to eroding that current monopoly.
lamontcg 4y ago
“The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.”

Any bureaucracy seems to tend towards making the system of bureaucracy more efficient for those managing it, not those working under it. Schools, K through university, all suffer from this.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

One of the worst parts of this is that the bureaucrats in school systems are so smug about it. They go yelling "academic freedom" when you threaten to cut their job, while clamping down on the "acceptable" fields of study for faculty. These administrators are the real threats to academic freedom. That said, I think the entire US university system needs a rethink, so I'm not upset that these bureaucrats are accelerating the process of burning it to the ground.

salamo 4y ago
From the article, > The founders of the democratic tradition understood that institutions are prone to corruption. This does not mean that they cease to operate. It means, to the contrary, that they continue to function, but in ways that no longer serve their original purpose. It's not clear to me that universities will burn to the ground. They can probably stumble along for decades down the same path if nothing changes. No, their incentives need to be corrected.
- User23 4y ago
  Lindy[1] suggests that Harvard will outlive the United States. Edit: [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
  - naniwaduni 4y ago
    Harvard is older than the US, and frankly does at least seem better-aligned to its original goals (training Puritan ministers!) than the US does.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    I think when people think about universities, they think of Harvard and Stanford, but there are a lot more schools like (for example) Middle Tennessee University. These are schools that extract Harvard-like rents without the prestige or quality, and these will be the ones that go down. Harvard and its ilk will likely survive the next millennium.
  - abecode 4y ago
    If you ignore the whole education thing, universities are organizations that aim to preserve their own existence (like religions) rather than return money to shareholders (like companies)

trentnix 4y ago

Precisely as Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy predicts: First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration. Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc. The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

BurningFrog 4y ago
The only counter force I'm aware of is competition. Organization A that is 80% devoted to serve it's bureaucracy will be outcompeted by Organization B which is only at 40%, presumably because it's younger. That only works if they compete on productive end results, and I'm not sure how true that is for US universities.
- Ieghaehia9 4y ago
  Democracy combined with local units significantly valuing their autonomy also seems to work, e.g. the International Typographical Union example from Union Democracy.
- buitreVirtual 4y ago
  That's usually the problem. There is virtually no competition within a state university system. Even in open markets, incumbents are bloated with bureaucracy and politics but succeed by digging trenches around them to keep new players out.
  - bumby 4y ago
    Universities have already lost their stranglehold on access to information. Now they focus on their monopoly of credentialism. If they lose that too they might face real competition and adjust course. There may be both bottom-up and top-down approaches to eroding that current monopoly.

lamontcg 4y ago

“The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.”