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I wish that we'd come up with a replacement that's just as good first, and only then phase out the original. As an example of the right way to do things, consid

I wish that we'd come up with a replacement that's just as good first, and only then phase out the original. As an example of the right way to do things, consider that nobody banned leaded avgas before the FAA found and approved a safe unleaded formulation.

Jolter 4y ago
You realize this stuff is actually /toxic/, right? Can you come up with a single incentive that would make the industry invent non-toxic alternatives faster than a ban on the toxic substances would?
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Tetraethyl lead was actually toxic too. What incentive led the avgas industry to replace it before it was banned?
  - Jolter 4y ago
    Not sure what point you’re trying to make with that. I don’t know this stuff but I know how too look it up on Wikipedia, and it looks to me like it was phased out because regulators threatened a ban: “In November 2008, National Air Transportation Association president Jim Coyne indicated that the environmental impact of aviation is expected to be a big issue over the next few years and will result in the phasing out of 100LL because of its lead content.[45] By May 2012, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA Unleaded Avgas Transition rulemaking committee) had put together a plan in conjunction with industry to replace leaded avgas with an unleaded alternative within 11 years.”
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      Yes, they threatened a ban and set a timeline to phase it out, but unleaded avgas became available before leaded avgas became unavailable.
      - Jolter 4y ago
        Because the regulators weren’t stupid. They knew an overnight ban would ground flights (impacting jobs, economy in remote areas etc) so they gave the industry some leeway. I can only assume that current regulators don’t have an incentive to wait when it comes to this problem. Perhaps they think not too many job are impacted, and no remote village will go without their mail service, etc? Personally I don’t have a problem with some middle-and-upper class cyclists having to use regular Gore-Tex for their leisure activities so my kids don’t get poisoned. They’re not coming to take away your existing jacket, just continue biking like you’re used to…
loeg 4y ago
It also seems like using these things in items like jackets is a lot less problematic than using them in ski waxes, which by design erode from the ski and get distributed in the environment. Jackets more or less stay in one piece.
- Jolter 4y ago
  The ski waxes use pretty small amounts, as I understand it. Anyway, they are indeed being phased out from ski waxes in many places/contexts. The FIS are phasing them out from all competitive skiing, to begin with.
  - loeg 4y ago
    My impression is that the international ski bodies (FIS et al) have fully banned the substances at this point. No phase out.
    - oostevo 4y ago
      The ban was postponed, as I understand it, as they work through ways to catch people cheating by still using the substances. https://www.fis-ski.com/en/international-ski-federation/news-multimedia/news-2022/fis-postpones-full-implementation-of-fluor-wax-ban https://www.fis-ski.com/en/international-ski-federation/news...
      - loeg 4y ago
        Oh, interesting, I hadn't heard that. Thanks!
rodgerd 4y ago
"We should keep poisoning the planet until it's convenient for capitalism" is a very unsurprising take on HN, but disappointing nonetheless.
siftrics 4y ago
"I wish that we would keep getting cancer until ..."
swagmoney1606 4y ago
It sounds like Gore Fabrics actually has a replacement in the works though. "Introducing New Gore-Tex Products with Innovative Expanded Polyethylene (ePE) Membrane for AW22" Anyways the other stuff is extremely harmful to the planet. There are other (less effective) waterproof materials in the meantime.
edrxty 4y ago
The FAA had plenty of options to replace 100LL for decades but didn't have the balls to make any compromises at all. Most of the aircraft could have been trivially run on 93UL or even automotive 93 and the few that couldn't could have been trivially modified. It was politically untenable to subsidize any upgrades to the GA fleet and/or airport facilities, however, so they dicked around for an eternity and eventually someone came up with a more expensive cocktail of random other chemicals.
eternityforest 4y ago
They can calculate the years of life lost if people excercise less due to no available substitutes, and compare it to the current expected years of life lost from the chemicals. Considering they are called forever chemicals, I suspect the results will favor the ban. Someone's running hobby is not as important as clean water. Neither is your omelette. I'm sure there are professional and medical uses for those clothes, but we can't just spew crap that never goes away into people who don't get a choice not to consume it. Also didn't they have unleaded avgas for years? I thought the leaded gas was just to keep some really ancient engines running? Probably wouldn't have been that expensive to subsidize replacements if so.

Jolter 4y ago

You realize this stuff is actually /toxic/, right? Can you come up with a single incentive that would make the industry invent non-toxic alternatives faster than a ban on the toxic substances would?

josephcsible 4y ago
Tetraethyl lead was actually toxic too. What incentive led the avgas industry to replace it before it was banned?
- Jolter 4y ago
  Not sure what point you’re trying to make with that. I don’t know this stuff but I know how too look it up on Wikipedia, and it looks to me like it was phased out because regulators threatened a ban: “In November 2008, National Air Transportation Association president Jim Coyne indicated that the environmental impact of aviation is expected to be a big issue over the next few years and will result in the phasing out of 100LL because of its lead content.[45] By May 2012, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA Unleaded Avgas Transition rulemaking committee) had put together a plan in conjunction with industry to replace leaded avgas with an unleaded alternative within 11 years.”
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Yes, they threatened a ban and set a timeline to phase it out, but unleaded avgas became available before leaded avgas became unavailable.
    - Jolter 4y ago
      Because the regulators weren’t stupid. They knew an overnight ban would ground flights (impacting jobs, economy in remote areas etc) so they gave the industry some leeway. I can only assume that current regulators don’t have an incentive to wait when it comes to this problem. Perhaps they think not too many job are impacted, and no remote village will go without their mail service, etc? Personally I don’t have a problem with some middle-and-upper class cyclists having to use regular Gore-Tex for their leisure activities so my kids don’t get poisoned. They’re not coming to take away your existing jacket, just continue biking like you’re used to…

loeg 4y ago

It also seems like using these things in items like jackets is a lot less problematic than using them in ski waxes, which by design erode from the ski and get distributed in the environment. Jackets more or less stay in one piece.

Jolter 4y ago
The ski waxes use pretty small amounts, as I understand it. Anyway, they are indeed being phased out from ski waxes in many places/contexts. The FIS are phasing them out from all competitive skiing, to begin with.
- loeg 4y ago
  My impression is that the international ski bodies (FIS et al) have fully banned the substances at this point. No phase out.
  - oostevo 4y ago
    The ban was postponed, as I understand it, as they work through ways to catch people cheating by still using the substances. https://www.fis-ski.com/en/international-ski-federation/news-multimedia/news-2022/fis-postpones-full-implementation-of-fluor-wax-ban https://www.fis-ski.com/en/international-ski-federation/news...
    - loeg 4y ago
      Oh, interesting, I hadn't heard that. Thanks!

rodgerd 4y ago

"We should keep poisoning the planet until it's convenient for capitalism" is a very unsurprising take on HN, but disappointing nonetheless.

siftrics 4y ago

"I wish that we would keep getting cancer until ..."

swagmoney1606 4y ago

It sounds like Gore Fabrics actually has a replacement in the works though. "Introducing New Gore-Tex Products with Innovative Expanded Polyethylene (ePE) Membrane for AW22" Anyways the other stuff is extremely harmful to the planet. There are other (less effective) waterproof materials in the meantime.

edrxty 4y ago

The FAA had plenty of options to replace 100LL for decades but didn't have the balls to make any compromises at all. Most of the aircraft could have been trivially run on 93UL or even automotive 93 and the few that couldn't could have been trivially modified. It was politically untenable to subsidize any upgrades to the GA fleet and/or airport facilities, however, so they dicked around for an eternity and eventually someone came up with a more expensive cocktail of random other chemicals.

eternityforest 4y ago

They can calculate the years of life lost if people excercise less due to no available substitutes, and compare it to the current expected years of life lost from the chemicals. Considering they are called forever chemicals, I suspect the results will favor the ban. Someone's running hobby is not as important as clean water. Neither is your omelette. I'm sure there are professional and medical uses for those clothes, but we can't just spew crap that never goes away into people who don't get a choice not to consume it. Also didn't they have unleaded avgas for years? I thought the leaded gas was just to keep some really ancient engines running? Probably wouldn't have been that expensive to subsidize replacements if so.