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In that case we would need to use services (assuming they are actually needed) that respect freedom, or create them or find alternative ways to meet the same ne

In that case we would need to use services (assuming they are actually needed) that respect freedom, or create them or find alternative ways to meet the same need.

runjake 4y ago
Therein lies the whole point.
Jenda_ 4y ago
It may be difficult, for example it may require starting a new bank, or outright impossible, when most people you need to communicate with (e.g. for business, or hobbies - but of course you can go living in the woods) are on some proprietary communication platform (think of WhatsApp/Facebook). Other times it may be "just" wildly inconvenient, e.g. when all taxi services, bikesharing and public transport in a given city will be available only through an "app". As another anecdote from real life, the 2022 AMS meeting (https://annual.ametsoc.org/index.cfm/2022/about-the-meeting/ams-102nd-annual-meeting-commitment-to-care-statement/ https://annual.ametsoc.org/index.cfm/2022/about-the-meeting/...) required "daily health survey" through a "CLEAR app" to attend.
TeMPOraL 4y ago
> In that case we would need to use services (assuming they are actually needed) We're talking about things like banking. Yes, some of this already affects services that are needed in practical sense to function in modern society, and it'll affect more of them over time. > or create them [services that respect freedom] Impossible, because the market is highly competitive, so services respecting freedom have no chance to survive for long, which also means almost no one is willing to try making them - and more importantly - funding them. > or find alternative ways to meet the same need. Increasingly close to impossible in a practical sense. Observe how many things are increasingly becoming mobile-first or mobile-only. Banks, again, are a litmus test: there are plenty of new ones that don't have a web interface or physical presence, and the more traditional ones all strongly push users towards being dependent on the phone app (even if used only as an auth tool, it's still a hard dependency), which of course will happily use hardware and remote attestation to ensure you're not using a device that isn't a pristine, unmodded version of what the corporate world wants you to use.

In that case we would need to use services (assuming they are actually needed) that respect freedom, or create them or find alternative ways to meet the same need.

runjake 4y ago

Therein lies the whole point.

Jenda_ 4y ago

It may be difficult, for example it may require starting a new bank, or outright impossible, when most people you need to communicate with (e.g. for business, or hobbies - but of course you can go living in the woods) are on some proprietary communication platform (think of WhatsApp/Facebook). Other times it may be "just" wildly inconvenient, e.g. when all taxi services, bikesharing and public transport in a given city will be available only through an "app". As another anecdote from real life, the 2022 AMS meeting (https://annual.ametsoc.org/index.cfm/2022/about-the-meeting/ams-102nd-annual-meeting-commitment-to-care-statement/ https://annual.ametsoc.org/index.cfm/2022/about-the-meeting/...) required "daily health survey" through a "CLEAR app" to attend.

TeMPOraL 4y ago

> In that case we would need to use services (assuming they are actually needed) We're talking about things like banking. Yes, some of this already affects services that are needed in practical sense to function in modern society, and it'll affect more of them over time. > or create them [services that respect freedom] Impossible, because the market is highly competitive, so services respecting freedom have no chance to survive for long, which also means almost no one is willing to try making them - and more importantly - funding them. > or find alternative ways to meet the same need. Increasingly close to impossible in a practical sense. Observe how many things are increasingly becoming mobile-first or mobile-only. Banks, again, are a litmus test: there are plenty of new ones that don't have a web interface or physical presence, and the more traditional ones all strongly push users towards being dependent on the phone app (even if used only as an auth tool, it's still a hard dependency), which of course will happily use hardware and remote attestation to ensure you're not using a device that isn't a pristine, unmodded version of what the corporate world wants you to use.