4 ms·

> Yet people blame Twitter when someone posts a tweet with hate speech. This is a dangerous direction for the world to be moving in. Not to diminish the issue,

by teux 4y ago

> Yet people blame Twitter when someone posts a tweet with hate speech. This is a dangerous direction for the world to be moving in. Not to diminish the issue, but this is mostly an American problem as far as I see it. I realise these are also American companies, but conflating the entire world to be in danger is a bit disingenuous imo. MANY European countries (speaking from a Scandinavian perspective) don’t suffer from this, and while there’s a danger of American policies trickling down, that has been severely diminished in the past decade as there’s a movement of all of us (that I’ve seen) sort of re-evaluating our admiration of the US that was built in the 90’s - 00’s. From the outside this isn’t a direction the world seems to be moving in. Just more crazy US spiralling.

nyolfen 4y ago
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/11/twitter-claims-none-of-our-policies-have-changed-after-abandoning-covid-policy/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/11/twitter-claims-n...
mrj 4y ago
Eh I mean, there's been a rise of extremism all across Europe. It's not quite accurate to say it's an exclusively American thing. Hate speech is rising and there's a case to be made that it's because extremists find each other on the internet (Doctorow calls it a "jihadi recruitment tool" in the article). https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-02-18/far-right-extremism-growing-across-europe-survey-finds https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-02-...
- blue039 4y ago
  ...what if the rise in so-called "extremism" is a direct result of government policy leading to poorer outcomes for the average person. If you study history people tend to become tribal not long after life gets hard. If I was a government think tank I'd surely blame the internet long before I blamed my rent seeking laws that inordinately effect the average worker.
  - suzzer99 4y ago
    Unemployment is at all time lows. What exactly is getting harder for people? I agree that people have more and more sources triggering their fears and prejudices for a buck, which is making them angrier and angrier.
    - cratermoon 4y ago
      > What exactly is getting harder for people? Having a job that doesn't pay enough to afford to pay rent & utilities, buy food, pay off college loans. I could go on. Just saying unemployment is low doesn't capture the nature of the working poor. Barbara Ehrenreich's book Nickel and Dimed covers this well. People who work in software and make six figures tend not to be squeezed to afford the basics, except perhaps if they have to live in one of the highest COL cities in the US, but there are millions in the developed world that hold 2-3 jobs and still barely afford living.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      Fuel prices are at an all-time high, and fuel companies are posting record profits. Rent is at an all-time high. Mortgages are getting insane because we have double-digit inflation and insanely high interest rates. Saving are worthless because of double-digit inflation and insanely high interest rates not actually being passed on except where it benefits banks. Food prices are at an all-time high and farms are going to the wall because they're being paid scrap prices for everything they sell. Unemployment is at an all-time low? That's great, but people are working their backsides off and cannot afford to eat or heat their homes. In the UK we have had twelve years of the right-wing extremist Conservative government and their "economic austerity" to "right the ship". What this has meant in practical terms is that wages have not risen in twelve years, taxes have gone up and up and up, and public spending has gone down and down and down. We had the woefully inept Kwasi Kwarteng who blew £60 billion off the UK's economy by raising taxes on the poorest and cutting them for the richest, collapsing most people's private pension pots. We went from roughly 40,000 people in the UK using food banks in 2010 when the Tories took power to 2.5 million people using food banks in 2022 - and these are not just "poor people" who the tabloid trash papers sneer at "well somehow they can afford mobile phones and TVs, why can't they afford food" - no, there are people on £30-£40k per year, who simply cannot afford to feed their families because they have to choose whether they keep the lights on, buy food, or pay their mortgage. The political right have over the past 20 years done incalculable damage to the world.
- logifail 4y ago
  > there's been a rise of extremism all across Europe There's certainly a rise in talking about stuff being "extremist", but how much of this is genuine? The incentives (more outrage, more views, more clicks, more ads) don't exactly encourage honest reporting or even discussion on this.
- teux 4y ago
  Definitely. Might have been unclear but I was trying to speak specifically about the “blame the platform not the people” mentality I was responding to. Fully in agreement extremism is on the rise and the internet aids this.
- thedrbrian 4y ago
  be interesting to graph that against immigration numbers......
brantonb 4y ago
A counterpoint is that if the companies running these platforms are run by American companies, then their efforts to combat hate speech will be disproportionately focused on English language and American hate speech. This can allow it to flourish elsewhere.
slowmovintarget 4y ago
IIRC wasn't social media used to destabilize several countries in Southeast Asia and Africa? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/06/technology/myanmar-facebook.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/06/technology/myanmar-facebo... https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/25/business/ethiopia-violence-facebook-papers-cmd-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/25/business/ethiopia-violence-fa... That was Facebook, not Twitter, but this is not just a problem for America.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
In Germany you can get your house searched for a tweet. Not for terrorism or any egregious crime, a viral example was because a politician has been called a penis. I believe the UK has similar issues. This is far worse than the situatuation in the US. Not the smartest choice to make yourself identifiable, but such legislative blunders still need to be corrected. I don't believe a house search is some trivial policing. I think the state failed again to protect reasonable rights. And yes, the hate speech legislation of Germany should be adapted to the 21st century. This won't happen politically, because society currently loves pointing fingers at small missteps. A wrong joke and you get a shit storm. It is the usual suspects, you hate women or are a racist are the most common accusation. People really start forgetting what these qualifiers really mean. And I believe they get far too much political support and that this isn't a healthy development.

by teux 4y ago

nyolfen 4y ago

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/11/twitter-claims-none-of-our-policies-have-changed-after-abandoning-covid-policy/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/11/twitter-claims-n...

mrj 4y ago

Eh I mean, there's been a rise of extremism all across Europe. It's not quite accurate to say it's an exclusively American thing. Hate speech is rising and there's a case to be made that it's because extremists find each other on the internet (Doctorow calls it a "jihadi recruitment tool" in the article). https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-02-18/far-right-extremism-growing-across-europe-survey-finds https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2021-02-...

blue039 4y ago
...what if the rise in so-called "extremism" is a direct result of government policy leading to poorer outcomes for the average person. If you study history people tend to become tribal not long after life gets hard. If I was a government think tank I'd surely blame the internet long before I blamed my rent seeking laws that inordinately effect the average worker.
- suzzer99 4y ago
  Unemployment is at all time lows. What exactly is getting harder for people? I agree that people have more and more sources triggering their fears and prejudices for a buck, which is making them angrier and angrier.
  - cratermoon 4y ago
    > What exactly is getting harder for people? Having a job that doesn't pay enough to afford to pay rent & utilities, buy food, pay off college loans. I could go on. Just saying unemployment is low doesn't capture the nature of the working poor. Barbara Ehrenreich's book Nickel and Dimed covers this well. People who work in software and make six figures tend not to be squeezed to afford the basics, except perhaps if they have to live in one of the highest COL cities in the US, but there are millions in the developed world that hold 2-3 jobs and still barely afford living.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    Fuel prices are at an all-time high, and fuel companies are posting record profits. Rent is at an all-time high. Mortgages are getting insane because we have double-digit inflation and insanely high interest rates. Saving are worthless because of double-digit inflation and insanely high interest rates not actually being passed on except where it benefits banks. Food prices are at an all-time high and farms are going to the wall because they're being paid scrap prices for everything they sell. Unemployment is at an all-time low? That's great, but people are working their backsides off and cannot afford to eat or heat their homes. In the UK we have had twelve years of the right-wing extremist Conservative government and their "economic austerity" to "right the ship". What this has meant in practical terms is that wages have not risen in twelve years, taxes have gone up and up and up, and public spending has gone down and down and down. We had the woefully inept Kwasi Kwarteng who blew £60 billion off the UK's economy by raising taxes on the poorest and cutting them for the richest, collapsing most people's private pension pots. We went from roughly 40,000 people in the UK using food banks in 2010 when the Tories took power to 2.5 million people using food banks in 2022 - and these are not just "poor people" who the tabloid trash papers sneer at "well somehow they can afford mobile phones and TVs, why can't they afford food" - no, there are people on £30-£40k per year, who simply cannot afford to feed their families because they have to choose whether they keep the lights on, buy food, or pay their mortgage. The political right have over the past 20 years done incalculable damage to the world.
logifail 4y ago
> there's been a rise of extremism all across Europe There's certainly a rise in talking about stuff being "extremist", but how much of this is genuine? The incentives (more outrage, more views, more clicks, more ads) don't exactly encourage honest reporting or even discussion on this.
teux 4y ago
Definitely. Might have been unclear but I was trying to speak specifically about the “blame the platform not the people” mentality I was responding to. Fully in agreement extremism is on the rise and the internet aids this.
thedrbrian 4y ago
be interesting to graph that against immigration numbers......

brantonb 4y ago

A counterpoint is that if the companies running these platforms are run by American companies, then their efforts to combat hate speech will be disproportionately focused on English language and American hate speech. This can allow it to flourish elsewhere.

slowmovintarget 4y ago

IIRC wasn't social media used to destabilize several countries in Southeast Asia and Africa? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/06/technology/myanmar-facebook.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/06/technology/myanmar-facebo... https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/25/business/ethiopia-violence-facebook-papers-cmd-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/25/business/ethiopia-violence-fa... That was Facebook, not Twitter, but this is not just a problem for America.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

In Germany you can get your house searched for a tweet. Not for terrorism or any egregious crime, a viral example was because a politician has been called a penis. I believe the UK has similar issues. This is far worse than the situatuation in the US. Not the smartest choice to make yourself identifiable, but such legislative blunders still need to be corrected. I don't believe a house search is some trivial policing. I think the state failed again to protect reasonable rights. And yes, the hate speech legislation of Germany should be adapted to the 21st century. This won't happen politically, because society currently loves pointing fingers at small missteps. A wrong joke and you get a shit storm. It is the usual suspects, you hate women or are a racist are the most common accusation. People really start forgetting what these qualifiers really mean. And I believe they get far too much political support and that this isn't a healthy development.