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IMHO decentralization is not the way to go, which is why I started OpenDolphin [1]. If you end up having a "decentralized system" with 30k users per instance,

IMHO decentralization is not the way to go, which is why I started OpenDolphin [1]. If you end up having a "decentralized system" with 30k users per instance, you basically just have a centralized system that federates with other instances. Sure, it is kind of decentralized, but the admins of that 30k instance are effectively able to read the DMs, impersonate users and delete their content. I personally think (and I'm trying to formalize my ideas somehow with OpenDolphin) that a centralized instance that is only used to serve the __signed__ / encrypted content solves some parts of the decentralization issues we're seeing here - whilst still giving the users some of the features of decentralized platforms. If you like / dislike the idea, help us out! We're trying to build a community to build together something great. Every contribution counts (: And btw, yes, I do agree: that hardware for 30k users doesn't make any sense - it really shows that something isn't optimized :( [1]: https://about.opendolphin.social/ https://about.opendolphin.social/

tedivm 4y ago
> Sure, it is kind of decentralized, but the admins of that 30k instance are effectively able to read the DMs, impersonate users and delete their content. There's a working group on end to end encryption already and I do believe they will solve that problem. Archiving content is trivial and can be automated. It's also pretty easy to migrate between instances- I started on one run by a friend but which I felt was too small, moved to one of the biggest ones, and then ended up on hachyderm. I may end up moving again as I feel like the service is getting rather big- it's one of the largest instances now and there are benefits to being on smaller instances that tend to push people towards them.
vidarh 4y ago
A centralised instance of any kind is a non-starter for a lot of those of us who have moved to Mastodon. And, yes, the admins of that 30k instance is able to do all kinds, and their users are able to leave if they do. I'd be all for improvements around signing and encryption, but not at the cost of centralisation (for my part, I run my own Mastodon server, but is also tinkering with my own ActivityPub implementation).
- denysvitali 4y ago
  Care to elaborate what could be the reason why a centralized instance is a non-starter? It looks like Mastodon's approach is yes decentralized, but soffers from the same censorship issues like Twitter - instances are often blacklisted on Mastodon
  - ilyt 4y ago
    Users choosing to block someone vs server admins deciding to decide for their users to block whole other server. It would be fine if it was just "don't pull this server to public feeds", but as it is now it just repeats the problem of giving moderators too much power over users.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      It can be just "don't pull this server to public feeds. In fact it can be a lot more granular. You can: * "Silence" it - makes posts invisible on your instance for everyone not following them * "Suspend" - removes all content. * Reject media files. Avoids downloading media files locally from this instance. * Reject reports from instances that are abusing the reporting. But limiting an instance is often insufficient because it doesn't stop your users from then subsequently replying etc. and indirectly dragging the conversation onto your server, and doesn't stop the remote instances users from harassing your users. And so it's often users pushing for harsher blocking. In any case on Mastodon people have choice - if you don't like your local admins mod decisions, you can move elsewhere and take your followers with you, so if anything mods have far less power on Mastodon than most places.
      - denysvitali 4y ago
        But that's not the reason you switched from Twitter to Mastodon right? Because as you're describing it, the problems are similar - although on a smaller scale. The main difference is that with Mastodon it seems like you have a choice to move away from a rogue instance
CharlesW 4y ago
I think it's neat to start a Twitter competitor and build it in the open, but I don't understand how you're doing to get traction without federation or some kind of undeniable USP. Even Twitter had to "federate" with SMS at first. Tip: On https://about.opendolphin.social/about https://about.opendolphin.social/about, the word "Retribution" is probably not the word you want here. "Compensation", maybe?
- denysvitali 4y ago
  Thing is... I don't know of any particular killer feature currently. It shouldn't also be up to me to decide tbh, as I would like to shape a product that is build by the users for the users. Thanks for the tip, I'll update the website [1] soon. [1]: https://github.com/OpenDolphin/website https://github.com/OpenDolphin/website
ilyt 4y ago
I think just having public key posted in DNS record + the subscribers saving both "human name" and public key would be enough; even if someone takes over a domain every subscriber will get an alert that they key have changed; maybe have backup method of just storing `/.well-known/<social-network>/username with same info for those that don't/can't fuck with DNS. Building on that the list of address+pubkeys can be put somewhere to search (DHT on server nodes?) so if someone moves shop they can still be found. Then the client could either subscribe directly to who they want (akin to RSS), or get on someone's instance (which would be akin to RSS aggregator) to participate in their community.
- vidarh 4y ago
  Mastodon uses webfinger for this, which scales much better (though I find it annoying webfinger wasn't specified with a url format that'd make it easy to provide static replies like what you suggested), and supports aliases and redirection. E.g. if you go here: https://galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acct:vidar@galaxybound.com https://galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acct:... You'll get redirected here: https://m.galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acct:vidar@galaxybound.com https://m.galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acc... Which will return a webfinger profile, which includes this activitypub profile (curl command line because you need the "Accept:" header): curl -H "Accept: application/activity+json" https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar If you look at the "publicKey" key in that JSON doc, you'll see: { "id": "https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar#main-key https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar#main-key", "owner": "https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar", "publicKeyPem": "-----BEGIN PUBLIC KEY-----\nMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAvHAMudraHmCA2u8wcI2/\n7iB0Td73AF7tk3LC7AuUxzCMu0Ipf/mNVdh+2nFOQ0pY+7E/wEgGeFg5BlMNC7hK\nebfYtY5ZFm7upVqQ0OXTP2hC+fnDTNcpmnPqmwMRdL54YtiZvQtRzW++ZKquWjER\nInM97NsjW0H0yuVkMETfPX1ilWkzTlWa9m0+H5Tmaz3EbKk3VanJXSLKNLnSq2lK\nbKcr2kD/U5UobzJDaaKjK+tW50iTOMiFEXLAT+4Po375WlgxKchahvtPyioiDm6j\noneGAbKRM/eAiHf7EhP76zyoL/LNG0XP4rDEFr4Ia4vo4HG1zhbGZ+815Tip4lNW\nYwIDAQAB\n-----END PUBLIC KEY-----\n" } .. which is used to check the signature of my posts when they federate. From the profile you also know where to get my posts, and can get them either as JSON or RSS if you want to pull them without actually following me. If someone "moves show" there'll be an alias in place. E.g: curl -H "Accept: application/activity+json" https://mastodon.social/users/vidarh https://mastodon.social/users/vidarh | jq .movedTo gives: "https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar" Now, something like a DHT to replace webfinger so a move can be done without cooperation from the original instance might be interesting, but Mastodon works pretty well here already.

tedivm 4y ago

> Sure, it is kind of decentralized, but the admins of that 30k instance are effectively able to read the DMs, impersonate users and delete their content. There's a working group on end to end encryption already and I do believe they will solve that problem. Archiving content is trivial and can be automated. It's also pretty easy to migrate between instances- I started on one run by a friend but which I felt was too small, moved to one of the biggest ones, and then ended up on hachyderm. I may end up moving again as I feel like the service is getting rather big- it's one of the largest instances now and there are benefits to being on smaller instances that tend to push people towards them.

vidarh 4y ago

A centralised instance of any kind is a non-starter for a lot of those of us who have moved to Mastodon. And, yes, the admins of that 30k instance is able to do all kinds, and their users are able to leave if they do. I'd be all for improvements around signing and encryption, but not at the cost of centralisation (for my part, I run my own Mastodon server, but is also tinkering with my own ActivityPub implementation).

denysvitali 4y ago
Care to elaborate what could be the reason why a centralized instance is a non-starter? It looks like Mastodon's approach is yes decentralized, but soffers from the same censorship issues like Twitter - instances are often blacklisted on Mastodon
- ilyt 4y ago
  Users choosing to block someone vs server admins deciding to decide for their users to block whole other server. It would be fine if it was just "don't pull this server to public feeds", but as it is now it just repeats the problem of giving moderators too much power over users.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    It can be just "don't pull this server to public feeds. In fact it can be a lot more granular. You can: * "Silence" it - makes posts invisible on your instance for everyone not following them * "Suspend" - removes all content. * Reject media files. Avoids downloading media files locally from this instance. * Reject reports from instances that are abusing the reporting. But limiting an instance is often insufficient because it doesn't stop your users from then subsequently replying etc. and indirectly dragging the conversation onto your server, and doesn't stop the remote instances users from harassing your users. And so it's often users pushing for harsher blocking. In any case on Mastodon people have choice - if you don't like your local admins mod decisions, you can move elsewhere and take your followers with you, so if anything mods have far less power on Mastodon than most places.
    - denysvitali 4y ago
      But that's not the reason you switched from Twitter to Mastodon right? Because as you're describing it, the problems are similar - although on a smaller scale. The main difference is that with Mastodon it seems like you have a choice to move away from a rogue instance

CharlesW 4y ago

I think it's neat to start a Twitter competitor and build it in the open, but I don't understand how you're doing to get traction without federation or some kind of undeniable USP. Even Twitter had to "federate" with SMS at first. Tip: On https://about.opendolphin.social/about https://about.opendolphin.social/about, the word "Retribution" is probably not the word you want here. "Compensation", maybe?

denysvitali 4y ago
Thing is... I don't know of any particular killer feature currently. It shouldn't also be up to me to decide tbh, as I would like to shape a product that is build by the users for the users. Thanks for the tip, I'll update the website [1] soon. [1]: https://github.com/OpenDolphin/website https://github.com/OpenDolphin/website

ilyt 4y ago

I think just having public key posted in DNS record + the subscribers saving both "human name" and public key would be enough; even if someone takes over a domain every subscriber will get an alert that they key have changed; maybe have backup method of just storing `/.well-known/<social-network>/username with same info for those that don't/can't fuck with DNS. Building on that the list of address+pubkeys can be put somewhere to search (DHT on server nodes?) so if someone moves shop they can still be found. Then the client could either subscribe directly to who they want (akin to RSS), or get on someone's instance (which would be akin to RSS aggregator) to participate in their community.

vidarh 4y ago
Mastodon uses webfinger for this, which scales much better (though I find it annoying webfinger wasn't specified with a url format that'd make it easy to provide static replies like what you suggested), and supports aliases and redirection. E.g. if you go here: https://galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acct:vidar@galaxybound.com https://galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acct:... You'll get redirected here: https://m.galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acct:vidar@galaxybound.com https://m.galaxybound.com/.well-known/webfinger?resource=acc... Which will return a webfinger profile, which includes this activitypub profile (curl command line because you need the "Accept:" header): curl -H "Accept: application/activity+json" https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar If you look at the "publicKey" key in that JSON doc, you'll see: { "id": "https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar#main-key https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar#main-key", "owner": "https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar", "publicKeyPem": "-----BEGIN PUBLIC KEY-----\nMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAvHAMudraHmCA2u8wcI2/\n7iB0Td73AF7tk3LC7AuUxzCMu0Ipf/mNVdh+2nFOQ0pY+7E/wEgGeFg5BlMNC7hK\nebfYtY5ZFm7upVqQ0OXTP2hC+fnDTNcpmnPqmwMRdL54YtiZvQtRzW++ZKquWjER\nInM97NsjW0H0yuVkMETfPX1ilWkzTlWa9m0+H5Tmaz3EbKk3VanJXSLKNLnSq2lK\nbKcr2kD/U5UobzJDaaKjK+tW50iTOMiFEXLAT+4Po375WlgxKchahvtPyioiDm6j\noneGAbKRM/eAiHf7EhP76zyoL/LNG0XP4rDEFr4Ia4vo4HG1zhbGZ+815Tip4lNW\nYwIDAQAB\n-----END PUBLIC KEY-----\n" } .. which is used to check the signature of my posts when they federate. From the profile you also know where to get my posts, and can get them either as JSON or RSS if you want to pull them without actually following me. If someone "moves show" there'll be an alias in place. E.g: curl -H "Accept: application/activity+json" https://mastodon.social/users/vidarh https://mastodon.social/users/vidarh | jq .movedTo gives: "https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar https://m.galaxybound.com/users/vidar" Now, something like a DHT to replace webfinger so a move can be done without cooperation from the original instance might be interesting, but Mastodon works pretty well here already.