5 ms·

A QA friend of mine remarked that he was amazed that the loss of general purpose computing capability would be accomplished simply by a change in form factor.

A QA friend of mine remarked that he was amazed that the loss of general purpose computing capability would be accomplished simply by a change in form factor. Smartphone OSes have propogated their own curated walled-garden app stores, and then the desktop OS vendors follow suit. Soon it will simply not be possible to install unsigned, uncertified software on your computer, and that will be the end of GPC.

robinsonb5 4y ago
Which is why I desperately want someone to build a board using a Yosys/nextpnr-supported FPGA and having loads of RAM. Half a gig is a typical maximum for such boards - with access to more generous amount of RAM building an entirely self-hosting RISC-V based computer becomes plausible. OK it won't be fast, but it will be Free. (Of course that might not help much if the wider internet - or particular critical services - starts to require remote attestation...)
- Jenda_ 4y ago
  I think such solution is not needed now -- even if all the vendors started selling only locked-down computers tomorrow (realistically I think the fastest transition may take 10 years, you not only need to implement this at motherboard/CPU vendors, but also within all these corporations that have their own servers and thus depend on running custom OSes), you still have loads of current hardware that you can use until it breaks, let's say another 10 years. Should the problem arise in 2035, you will have completely different FPGA/ASIC possibilities available by then, and current FPGAs are no longer manufactured.
  - robinsonb5 4y ago
    I hope it's never needed - but I'm also alarmed by how quickly certain transitions are happening (perhaps I'm just feeling especially pessimistic about the rate at which we're sleepwalking into a tech dystopia because a fortnight after the local supermarket installed a bunch of self-checkout terminals, HSBC announced the closure of over 100 UK branches, including the one I use!) We already have Pluton-equipped laptops with the 3rd-party signing key disabled by default - it's not a huge step further to remove it entirely. So yeah, I hope it's never needed, but "hope for the best, prepare for the worst", and all that!
- eric__cartman 4y ago
  I would love to see that come true in the future but sadly nowadays the best way to have a fully free system is to use older hardware and stock up in spare parts to keep it running until an alternative pops up. Or one of those workstations with an IBM POWER CPU, but the price point is out of reach for most consumers.
jorvi 4y ago
And yet with the EU taking a first stab at (smartphone) OS lockdowns, it’s guaranteed most of the top comments here on HN are just buckets of vitriol being poured on it. As happened with the EU forcing a universal charging standard. Or privacy protections.
- ahartmetz 4y ago
  It such regulation comes, it will be taking away freedom to take away freedom from the free market. Interesting concept, and interesting mental gymnastics will be done.
  - jorvi 4y ago
    Case in point. I cannot fathom how Americans can point at the EU successfully forcing phone manufacturers to switch from 40 different types of proprietary chargers (we used to have different chargers for different models within a phone series ffs) to 1 and say “wow fuck the EU for taking away the freedom that obligated me to have a dedicated charging drawer”. That is the true mental gymnastics. Same with privacy. What sane human thinks “yes please, farm, process and store into perpetuity all the intimate data points of my life”..
    - Panzer04 4y ago
      The issue is we were already down to 3 different plugs - micro-usb, usb-c and lightning. Most android phones are already usb-c, so it's a pretty blatantly targeted measure. I'm mostly concerned about it locking out the development of new standards that aren't USB, even if that was an unlikely development anyway.
      - TeMPOraL 4y ago
        > Most android phones are already usb-c, so it's a pretty blatantly targeted measure. That's because, not in spite of the measures taken by the EU, which happened quite a long time ago.
Animats 4y ago
> Soon it will simply not be possible to install unsigned, uncertified software on your computer, Microsoft Windows has had that for a while. It's called "Windows S".[1] Only software from the Microsoft store can be installed. The lowest price laptops from Walmart run Windows S. [1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-and-windows-11-in-s-mode-faq-851057d6-1ee9-b9e5-c30b-93baebeebc85 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-and-w...
- jahnu 4y ago
  Afaik you can switch out of S mode. You just can’t switch it back on again. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/switching-out-of-s-mode-in-windows-4f56d9be-99ec-6983-119f-031bfb28a307 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/switching-out-of...
  - Animats 4y ago
    > Afaik you can switch out of S mode. Sometimes. For now. Machines in enterprise and school environments often have that option locked out.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Those by definition aren’t your computers.
  - DesiLurker 4y ago
    for now!
jkestner 4y ago
We thought Apple was unlocking the smartphone’s potential, not locking the computer’s.

robinsonb5 4y ago

Which is why I desperately want someone to build a board using a Yosys/nextpnr-supported FPGA and having loads of RAM. Half a gig is a typical maximum for such boards - with access to more generous amount of RAM building an entirely self-hosting RISC-V based computer becomes plausible. OK it won't be fast, but it will be Free. (Of course that might not help much if the wider internet - or particular critical services - starts to require remote attestation...)

Jenda_ 4y ago
I think such solution is not needed now -- even if all the vendors started selling only locked-down computers tomorrow (realistically I think the fastest transition may take 10 years, you not only need to implement this at motherboard/CPU vendors, but also within all these corporations that have their own servers and thus depend on running custom OSes), you still have loads of current hardware that you can use until it breaks, let's say another 10 years. Should the problem arise in 2035, you will have completely different FPGA/ASIC possibilities available by then, and current FPGAs are no longer manufactured.
- robinsonb5 4y ago
  I hope it's never needed - but I'm also alarmed by how quickly certain transitions are happening (perhaps I'm just feeling especially pessimistic about the rate at which we're sleepwalking into a tech dystopia because a fortnight after the local supermarket installed a bunch of self-checkout terminals, HSBC announced the closure of over 100 UK branches, including the one I use!) We already have Pluton-equipped laptops with the 3rd-party signing key disabled by default - it's not a huge step further to remove it entirely. So yeah, I hope it's never needed, but "hope for the best, prepare for the worst", and all that!
eric__cartman 4y ago
I would love to see that come true in the future but sadly nowadays the best way to have a fully free system is to use older hardware and stock up in spare parts to keep it running until an alternative pops up. Or one of those workstations with an IBM POWER CPU, but the price point is out of reach for most consumers.

jorvi 4y ago

And yet with the EU taking a first stab at (smartphone) OS lockdowns, it’s guaranteed most of the top comments here on HN are just buckets of vitriol being poured on it. As happened with the EU forcing a universal charging standard. Or privacy protections.

ahartmetz 4y ago
It such regulation comes, it will be taking away freedom to take away freedom from the free market. Interesting concept, and interesting mental gymnastics will be done.
- jorvi 4y ago
  Case in point. I cannot fathom how Americans can point at the EU successfully forcing phone manufacturers to switch from 40 different types of proprietary chargers (we used to have different chargers for different models within a phone series ffs) to 1 and say “wow fuck the EU for taking away the freedom that obligated me to have a dedicated charging drawer”. That is the true mental gymnastics. Same with privacy. What sane human thinks “yes please, farm, process and store into perpetuity all the intimate data points of my life”..
  - Panzer04 4y ago
    The issue is we were already down to 3 different plugs - micro-usb, usb-c and lightning. Most android phones are already usb-c, so it's a pretty blatantly targeted measure. I'm mostly concerned about it locking out the development of new standards that aren't USB, even if that was an unlikely development anyway.
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      > Most android phones are already usb-c, so it's a pretty blatantly targeted measure. That's because, not in spite of the measures taken by the EU, which happened quite a long time ago.

Animats 4y ago

> Soon it will simply not be possible to install unsigned, uncertified software on your computer, Microsoft Windows has had that for a while. It's called "Windows S".[1] Only software from the Microsoft store can be installed. The lowest price laptops from Walmart run Windows S. [1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-and-windows-11-in-s-mode-faq-851057d6-1ee9-b9e5-c30b-93baebeebc85 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-and-w...

jahnu 4y ago
Afaik you can switch out of S mode. You just can’t switch it back on again. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/switching-out-of-s-mode-in-windows-4f56d9be-99ec-6983-119f-031bfb28a307 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/switching-out-of...
- Animats 4y ago
  > Afaik you can switch out of S mode. Sometimes. For now. Machines in enterprise and school environments often have that option locked out.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Those by definition aren’t your computers.
- DesiLurker 4y ago
  for now!

jkestner 4y ago

We thought Apple was unlocking the smartphone’s potential, not locking the computer’s.