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> The paradox of tolerance, as it is commonly argued, has to be one of the worst philosophical arguments actually taken seriously. It basically boils down to an

> The paradox of tolerance, as it is commonly argued, has to be one of the worst philosophical arguments actually taken seriously. It basically boils down to an argument from fear - We all believe in the importance of {Sacred Value}, but the Evil Ones are coming to take {Sacred Value} away! By using our own good natures and {Sacred Value} against us, they will claim power, and then destroy {Sacred Value}! The only way to stop them is to destroy {Sacred Value}, thereby depriving them of the ability to use it against us! Hmm. If I were trying to present a bad-faith interpretation of the paradox of tolerance, this is how I'd do it. If I were trying to present a good-faith interpretation of the paradox of tolerance, I'd probably replace the last line with something like "The only way to stop them is to physically guard {Sacred Value}, thereby depriving them of the ability to destroy it!" Tolerance, as a {Sacred Value}, isn't like a treasury or fortified position, it's an open-air exhibition never intended to be hidden away. The only option, if we're actually serious about having it, is to stand against those who openly and boldly identify themselves as trying to take it away. >He does not recommend censoring or removing any liberties of the intolerant, unless and until they respond to rational argument by force. Unless they instruct followers to disregard rational argument as itself deceptive. Unless they are inciting actual criminal activity. I suppose you've never heard of right-wing militias showing up to left-wing protests while cops look on, or plot to kidnap and overthrow a governor? [0] I suppose you've never heard Donald Trump suggest that "what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening"? [1] I suppose you haven't heard of the banners at the most recent CPAC? [2] >"In the context of chapter 7 of Popper's work, specifically, section II, the note on the paradox of tolerance is intended as further explanation of Popper's rebuttal specific to the paradox as a rationale for autocracy: why political institutions within liberal democracies are preferable to Plato's vision of despotism, and through such institutions, the paradox can be avoided." I suppose you've never heard of Project REDMAP? [3] I suppose you've never heard of Murc's Law? [4] I agree with you -- the paradox of tolerance is best resolved by guiding our collective choices to avoid a direct confrontation with it, but the "political institutions within liberal democracies" seem powerless or unwilling to do anything about the encroachment of violent intolerance. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-44959340 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-44959340 [2] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cpac-banner-domestic-terrorists/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cpac-banner-domestic-terro... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP [4] https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/12/great-moments-murcs-law https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/12/great-moments-m...

endominus 4y ago
>The only way to stop them is to physically guard {Sacred Value} When the {Sacred Value} is participation in the marketplace of ideas, then guarding it against unwelcome elements is the same as destroying it. When your justification can be used, identically, word for word, by the same people who believe the opposite of your beliefs, then it's not a logical reason, but a justification. Regarding the examples of criminal action, I'd heard of some of those events. I've also heard of a CNN host say that a teenager had a "punchable face" because he wore the wrong kind of hat and stood silently while being accosted by a screaming stranger banging a drum in his face. I've heard a lot of talk about punching Nazis, which seem to be a broader and broader group every year. I've heard of comedians jailed for jokes. I've heard of teenagers jailed for singing along to rap songs. I've I've heard of that quote by Trump, just as I've heard stories of news anchors standing in front of streets aflame, calling protests "mostly peaceful." It all reduces down to that Orwell quote, doesn't it? I'm insulated from most of this, I realize, by not being American and not having the same intense loyalty to your political tribes. But "the other group is doing all these terrible things to us" is not a very convincing argument for changing beliefs like this. Every group wants to claim it is being marginalized, and basically every group can point out specific examples of exactly that marginalization happening. Giving one group the right to cancel the civil liberties of the other group, as the paradox of tolerance suggests, does not strike me as a particularly wise idea, given the stakes involved. I have no confidence in any group to hold that power justly.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  >When the {Sacred Value} is participation in the marketplace of ideas, then guarding it against unwelcome elements is the same as destroying it. When your justification can be used, identically, word for word, by the same people who believe the opposite of your beliefs, then it's not a logical reason, but a justification. My "justification" is not usable identically, word for word, by the same people who believe the opposite of my beliefs, because they do not believe my beliefs. I, and you, and anyone else, can establish this by reading the cited links in my post above. Further, the {Sacred Value} under discussion isn't "participation in the marketplace of ideas", it's tolerance! Society does value "participation in the marketplace of ideas", but that's another can of worms; not entirely orthogonal to tolerance, but it's obviously not the same. In fact, I'd suggest that overreliance on the "marketplace of ideas", which, like any marketplace, is most easily dominated by those with the most money, is exacerbating society's problems with tolerance. >Regarding the examples of criminal action, I'd heard of some of those events. I've also heard of All the examples you cite (a CNN host, individuals talking about physically opposing self-identified Nazis, "comedians jailed for jokes", teenagers jailed for singing) are individuals. They may be being oppressed, in your view, by monolithic forces of intolerance, but they themselves are not monoliths baldly angling to protect in-groups which the law does not bind, alongside the exclusion of out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. Speaking of which-- >Giving one group the right to cancel the civil liberties of the other group But that's not what's happening. One group is cancelling the civil liberties of another, visibly, but they are keeping those rights for themselves. When the Black Panthers armed themselves, Reagan, of all people, instituted gun control, and now LGBTQetc groups protecting LGBTQetc events get called out by those who were previously using those same arms to threaten them; curtailing access to abortion is a great good, but "the only moral abortion is my abortion", and so those with means get 'em anyway from elsewhere. [0] >It all reduces down to that Orwell quote, doesn't it? Yes, some animals are more equal than others. That's what I'm saying. Rules are for the little people, not the important people. The important people can break the law and act immorally, and it's our fault for not stopping them. That's Murc's law. Popper's political solution only actually works if there are actual checks and balances, but most of them seem to be legally toothless and highly dependent on the moral standard of the individuals involved. It's my understanding, for instance, that every President since Nixon has voluntarily released their tax returns in order to promote trust; Nixon didn't for eerily similar reasons to those bandied about in modernity. >I'm insulated from most of this, I realize, by not being American and not having the same intense loyalty to your political tribes I'm not American. I assumed you were, by the examples of left-wing badness largely drawn from talking-head American media, and certain nuances of your defence of the political right. I don't like the American uniparty, but the simple fact is that one wing of it acts very differently than the other. They seem to functionally agree on like 75% of things (big military budgets, pro-Israel, the 1/5 of the GDP provided by for-profit medical care), but the wedge issues have become meaningful socially, and are being exported abroad. We all benefit from, and are all bound by, the Pax Americana. [0] https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/ https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-...

endominus 4y ago

>The only way to stop them is to physically guard {Sacred Value} When the {Sacred Value} is participation in the marketplace of ideas, then guarding it against unwelcome elements is the same as destroying it. When your justification can be used, identically, word for word, by the same people who believe the opposite of your beliefs, then it's not a logical reason, but a justification. Regarding the examples of criminal action, I'd heard of some of those events. I've also heard of a CNN host say that a teenager had a "punchable face" because he wore the wrong kind of hat and stood silently while being accosted by a screaming stranger banging a drum in his face. I've heard a lot of talk about punching Nazis, which seem to be a broader and broader group every year. I've heard of comedians jailed for jokes. I've heard of teenagers jailed for singing along to rap songs. I've I've heard of that quote by Trump, just as I've heard stories of news anchors standing in front of streets aflame, calling protests "mostly peaceful." It all reduces down to that Orwell quote, doesn't it? I'm insulated from most of this, I realize, by not being American and not having the same intense loyalty to your political tribes. But "the other group is doing all these terrible things to us" is not a very convincing argument for changing beliefs like this. Every group wants to claim it is being marginalized, and basically every group can point out specific examples of exactly that marginalization happening. Giving one group the right to cancel the civil liberties of the other group, as the paradox of tolerance suggests, does not strike me as a particularly wise idea, given the stakes involved. I have no confidence in any group to hold that power justly.

revolvingocelot 4y ago
>When the {Sacred Value} is participation in the marketplace of ideas, then guarding it against unwelcome elements is the same as destroying it. When your justification can be used, identically, word for word, by the same people who believe the opposite of your beliefs, then it's not a logical reason, but a justification. My "justification" is not usable identically, word for word, by the same people who believe the opposite of my beliefs, because they do not believe my beliefs. I, and you, and anyone else, can establish this by reading the cited links in my post above. Further, the {Sacred Value} under discussion isn't "participation in the marketplace of ideas", it's tolerance! Society does value "participation in the marketplace of ideas", but that's another can of worms; not entirely orthogonal to tolerance, but it's obviously not the same. In fact, I'd suggest that overreliance on the "marketplace of ideas", which, like any marketplace, is most easily dominated by those with the most money, is exacerbating society's problems with tolerance. >Regarding the examples of criminal action, I'd heard of some of those events. I've also heard of All the examples you cite (a CNN host, individuals talking about physically opposing self-identified Nazis, "comedians jailed for jokes", teenagers jailed for singing) are individuals. They may be being oppressed, in your view, by monolithic forces of intolerance, but they themselves are not monoliths baldly angling to protect in-groups which the law does not bind, alongside the exclusion of out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. Speaking of which-- >Giving one group the right to cancel the civil liberties of the other group But that's not what's happening. One group is cancelling the civil liberties of another, visibly, but they are keeping those rights for themselves. When the Black Panthers armed themselves, Reagan, of all people, instituted gun control, and now LGBTQetc groups protecting LGBTQetc events get called out by those who were previously using those same arms to threaten them; curtailing access to abortion is a great good, but "the only moral abortion is my abortion", and so those with means get 'em anyway from elsewhere. [0] >It all reduces down to that Orwell quote, doesn't it? Yes, some animals are more equal than others. That's what I'm saying. Rules are for the little people, not the important people. The important people can break the law and act immorally, and it's our fault for not stopping them. That's Murc's law. Popper's political solution only actually works if there are actual checks and balances, but most of them seem to be legally toothless and highly dependent on the moral standard of the individuals involved. It's my understanding, for instance, that every President since Nixon has voluntarily released their tax returns in order to promote trust; Nixon didn't for eerily similar reasons to those bandied about in modernity. >I'm insulated from most of this, I realize, by not being American and not having the same intense loyalty to your political tribes I'm not American. I assumed you were, by the examples of left-wing badness largely drawn from talking-head American media, and certain nuances of your defence of the political right. I don't like the American uniparty, but the simple fact is that one wing of it acts very differently than the other. They seem to functionally agree on like 75% of things (big military budgets, pro-Israel, the 1/5 of the GDP provided by for-profit medical care), but the wedge issues have become meaningful socially, and are being exported abroad. We all benefit from, and are all bound by, the Pax Americana. [0] https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/ https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-...