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So do China, North Korea or Russia. Sometimes there are even multiple parties. Is there a chance that the people in power (at any level of government) get vote

So do China, North Korea or Russia. Sometimes there are even multiple parties. Is there a chance that the people in power (at any level of government) get voted out?

booleandilemma 4y ago
Ha, your comment got me thinking: is there a chance Democrats and Republicans will ever be voted out?
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  The Whigs did so it’s possible! ;)
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    thats 250 years ago damn it!
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    This shows exactly how party change comes in a 2-party system (enforced by Duverger's Law due to first-past-the-post voting). One of the two main parties implodes for some reason, so the other party gets all the power. But that can't be sustained because there's different factions within that party, so the big party breaks in half, and you're right back to a 2-party system.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  The party system in the US does feel rigged to entrench the two remaining parties in the US. My hope is dropping first past the pole and adding ranked choice will help break up the duopoly. Still, there are glimmers of hope now and again. Like Ross Pero running as independent or the Bull Moose party.
  - smcl 4y ago
    The GOP really suffered in recent Alaskan elections after they adopted Ranked Choice voting. So expect them to very loudly and strongly oppose it being adopted anywhere, with a lot of bad-faith arguments implying it's a form of electoral corruption/manipulation and holding it up as an example of Democrat trickery.
    - DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
      Ranked-choice voting (STV, IIRC?) was rejected by referendum in the UK because (words to the effect of) “it’s too complicated for the average voter to understand”, according to the Keep FPTP camp. It’s a dumb argument for sure, but now (i.e. post-Brexit referendum) I can’t help but think it’s a valid dumb argument…
      - arlcode 4y ago
        I don't think British people are inherently dumber than the people here in Germany. Here you get two votes (one for the candidate of your district and one for the party. The second vote determines the number of seats while the first one makes sure a local guy gets one if them). This is much more difficult than just listing candidates in the order you like them and "make sure you include anyone you can somewhat stomach". Yet I've not heard if anyone being "confused (in the sende that they don't know what to choose) by the German system. Some people might not fully grasp the system but that's ok (after all most will be intellectually able to understand it).
        DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
        Mixed-member proportionate representation requires a constitutional overhaul though, which is why it's a very, very hard-sell without a prerequisite revolution, war, and/or guillotining of the malign parts of the aristocracy...
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Like Ross Pero running as independent or the Bull Moose party. The thing is those things either don't work (as in those examples) or they do and just replace one of the major parties in whay becomes a new, generally stable 2-party alignment. To get out of that, you need to weaken the electoral system elements reinforcing duopoly, the most direct way being to adopt some form of proportional representation (e.g., STV), at least for most (e.g., all state and the federal House of Reps) legislative elections. Even the commonly offered proposal of ranked ballots methods in single-member districts doesn’t really address the problem (PR, whether by STV or other mechanisms, also destroys the ability to significantly distort by gerrymandering.)
- scott_w 4y ago
  You can’t compare the outcome of the first past the post system of the U.K. and USA and the dictatorships of China and Russia that ensure the dictator will never peacefully transfer power to a rival.
  - zucker42 4y ago
    I don't want to defend the Chinese government, but the transitions of power in China have been peaceful since Deng Xiaoping.
    - refurb 4y ago
      Not hard to have a peaceful transition was all other parties are banned.
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      In public, at least. Though, didn't Deng just get dragged out of Congress on camera?
      - zucker42 4y ago
        You are thinking of Hu Jintao.
        zdragnar 4y ago
        Ah yes, thank you.
    - scott_w 4y ago
      > the dictator will never peacefully transfer power to a rival. Was Xi Jingping an open rival to Hu Jintao? Given Xi Jingping has purged his rivals from the levers of power, do you see any possibility that he'll peacefully stand down in 5 years to someone who is ideologically opposed to his government?
      - zucker42 4y ago
adalacelove 4y ago
Elections is the most visible part of a democracy but I think separation of powers is even more important. And of course is the first thing a dictator will eliminate, even more than elections. Actually is the first thing wannabe dictators inside democracies attack
vidarh 4y ago
China being one of the ones with multiple parties which often surprises people. But there are eight legal ones besides the CCP. In reality of course this means nothing, given they are all required to be part of the "United Front" led by the CCP.

So do China, North Korea or Russia. Sometimes there are even multiple parties. Is there a chance that the people in power (at any level of government) get voted out?

booleandilemma 4y ago

Ha, your comment got me thinking: is there a chance Democrats and Republicans will ever be voted out?

Waterluvian 4y ago
The Whigs did so it’s possible! ;)
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  thats 250 years ago damn it!
- midoridensha 4y ago
  This shows exactly how party change comes in a 2-party system (enforced by Duverger's Law due to first-past-the-post voting). One of the two main parties implodes for some reason, so the other party gets all the power. But that can't be sustained because there's different factions within that party, so the big party breaks in half, and you're right back to a 2-party system.
paulryanrogers 4y ago
The party system in the US does feel rigged to entrench the two remaining parties in the US. My hope is dropping first past the pole and adding ranked choice will help break up the duopoly. Still, there are glimmers of hope now and again. Like Ross Pero running as independent or the Bull Moose party.
- smcl 4y ago
  The GOP really suffered in recent Alaskan elections after they adopted Ranked Choice voting. So expect them to very loudly and strongly oppose it being adopted anywhere, with a lot of bad-faith arguments implying it's a form of electoral corruption/manipulation and holding it up as an example of Democrat trickery.
  - DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
    Ranked-choice voting (STV, IIRC?) was rejected by referendum in the UK because (words to the effect of) “it’s too complicated for the average voter to understand”, according to the Keep FPTP camp. It’s a dumb argument for sure, but now (i.e. post-Brexit referendum) I can’t help but think it’s a valid dumb argument…
    - arlcode 4y ago
      I don't think British people are inherently dumber than the people here in Germany. Here you get two votes (one for the candidate of your district and one for the party. The second vote determines the number of seats while the first one makes sure a local guy gets one if them). This is much more difficult than just listing candidates in the order you like them and "make sure you include anyone you can somewhat stomach". Yet I've not heard if anyone being "confused (in the sende that they don't know what to choose) by the German system. Some people might not fully grasp the system but that's ok (after all most will be intellectually able to understand it).
      - DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
        Mixed-member proportionate representation requires a constitutional overhaul though, which is why it's a very, very hard-sell without a prerequisite revolution, war, and/or guillotining of the malign parts of the aristocracy...
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Like Ross Pero running as independent or the Bull Moose party. The thing is those things either don't work (as in those examples) or they do and just replace one of the major parties in whay becomes a new, generally stable 2-party alignment. To get out of that, you need to weaken the electoral system elements reinforcing duopoly, the most direct way being to adopt some form of proportional representation (e.g., STV), at least for most (e.g., all state and the federal House of Reps) legislative elections. Even the commonly offered proposal of ranked ballots methods in single-member districts doesn’t really address the problem (PR, whether by STV or other mechanisms, also destroys the ability to significantly distort by gerrymandering.)
scott_w 4y ago
You can’t compare the outcome of the first past the post system of the U.K. and USA and the dictatorships of China and Russia that ensure the dictator will never peacefully transfer power to a rival.
- zucker42 4y ago
  I don't want to defend the Chinese government, but the transitions of power in China have been peaceful since Deng Xiaoping.
  - refurb 4y ago
    Not hard to have a peaceful transition was all other parties are banned.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    In public, at least. Though, didn't Deng just get dragged out of Congress on camera?
    - zucker42 4y ago
      You are thinking of Hu Jintao.
      - zdragnar 4y ago
        Ah yes, thank you.
  - scott_w 4y ago
    > the dictator will never peacefully transfer power to a rival. Was Xi Jingping an open rival to Hu Jintao? Given Xi Jingping has purged his rivals from the levers of power, do you see any possibility that he'll peacefully stand down in 5 years to someone who is ideologically opposed to his government?
    - zucker42 4y ago

adalacelove 4y ago

Elections is the most visible part of a democracy but I think separation of powers is even more important. And of course is the first thing a dictator will eliminate, even more than elections. Actually is the first thing wannabe dictators inside democracies attack

vidarh 4y ago

China being one of the ones with multiple parties which often surprises people. But there are eight legal ones besides the CCP. In reality of course this means nothing, given they are all required to be part of the "United Front" led by the CCP.