5 ms·

Graduate Students Analyze, Crack, and Remove Under-Desk Surveillance Devices

27 points by heywire 4y ago

charcircuit 4y ago
>These sensors were installed at night Obviously you can't install them during the middle of a class. >without student knowledge or consent It is not the student's desks. You aren't informed or asked consent when you walk into a business with CCTV cameras. >when pressed for an explanation, students were told this was part of a study on "desk usage," Which would be useful data for allocating classes to classrooms or building new classrooms. >After that, the students at the Privacy Institute, which specialize in studying surveillance and reversing its harm, started removing the sensors Which is illegal since it isn't their property. Overall this data collection was being done in a privacy respecting way and the students in the story were overreacting over documenting desk occupancy. Taking attending is less privacy preserving and that happens a lot in education.
- frumiousirc 4y ago
  > Overall this data collection was being done in a privacy respecting way and yet, I read > Luzzi had claimed the devices were secure and the data encrypted, but Privacy Institute students learned they were relatively insecure and unencrypted ... > Which is illegal since it isn't their property. and yet, I read > deployed without IRB approval even though human subjects were at the center of the so-called study For me, this is was perhaps the most important message, > many members of the computer science department were also in a union, and thus networked together for a quick mass response.
  - SideQuark 4y ago
    >> Which is illegal since it isn't their property. > and yet, I read >> deployed without IRB approval even though human subjects were at the center of the so-called study That still does not make tampering with them legal. The correct answer is to get the proper people to deal with any IRB issues.
- asdfigadfjinio 4y ago
  Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent.
  - SideQuark 4y ago
    So traffic counting items on roads to optimize road flow cannot be done? Stores cannot track purchases to optimize products and ads? Epidemiologists cannot look at large trends to determine allocation of medicine without getting consent of every person in a society? And on and on? There are plenty of places that it's both legal and useful (and even moral or right if you like those words) to gather data about humans and actions and behavior without the possibility or efficacy to get "informed consent".
    - zosima 4y ago
      Difference here of course is that subjects are being measured in a way which is almost definitely not fully anonymous. Of course an IRB review and an explanation of how data is properly anonymized should be there.
      - SideQuark 4y ago
        >Difference here of course is that subjects are being measured in a way which is almost definitely not fully anonymous. There's no way to conclude that from the article. The devices are designed to measure if a seat is being used, not take blood samples or record PII. If that data simply ends up being total # of seat hours in a given class, or seat-hours by time of day, then that's far more anonymous than a routine traffic cam tracking traffic flow, or tons of other things not requiring IRB review. It sounds more like the usual outrage spin. Maybe they'll simply use common security cameras in each room, and count people by face recognition :)
  - bequanna 4y ago
    Research via measurement alone is pretty different from research that involves trying to change behavior.
- rsfern 4y ago
  These were installed in grad student offices, and as far as I can tell not in classroom spaces It’s equivalent to your employer installing monitoring devices in your assigned desk and saying “trust us, we’ll anonymize the data”. And the administration got caught lying about submitting to the institutional review board
Steven420 4y ago
"trust the university since you trust them to give you a degree...." seems like extortion
remram 4y ago
Repost from 12 hours prior (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33849280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33849280)
- heywire 4y ago
  Oops, sorry about that. I searched for the story before posting and didn’t see it.

27 points by heywire 4y ago

>These sensors were installed at night Obviously you can't install them during the middle of a class. >without student knowledge or consent It is not the student's desks. You aren't informed or asked consent when you walk into a business with CCTV cameras. >when pressed for an explanation, students were told this was part of a study on "desk usage," Which would be useful data for allocating classes to classrooms or building new classrooms. >After that, the students at the Privacy Institute, which specialize in studying surveillance and reversing its harm, started removing the sensors Which is illegal since it isn't their property. Overall this data collection was being done in a privacy respecting way and the students in the story were overreacting over documenting desk occupancy. Taking attending is less privacy preserving and that happens a lot in education.

frumiousirc 4y ago
> Overall this data collection was being done in a privacy respecting way and yet, I read > Luzzi had claimed the devices were secure and the data encrypted, but Privacy Institute students learned they were relatively insecure and unencrypted ... > Which is illegal since it isn't their property. and yet, I read > deployed without IRB approval even though human subjects were at the center of the so-called study For me, this is was perhaps the most important message, > many members of the computer science department were also in a union, and thus networked together for a quick mass response.
- SideQuark 4y ago
  >> Which is illegal since it isn't their property. > and yet, I read >> deployed without IRB approval even though human subjects were at the center of the so-called study That still does not make tampering with them legal. The correct answer is to get the proper people to deal with any IRB issues.
asdfigadfjinio 4y ago
Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent. Do not do research on human subjects without informed consent.
- SideQuark 4y ago
  So traffic counting items on roads to optimize road flow cannot be done? Stores cannot track purchases to optimize products and ads? Epidemiologists cannot look at large trends to determine allocation of medicine without getting consent of every person in a society? And on and on? There are plenty of places that it's both legal and useful (and even moral or right if you like those words) to gather data about humans and actions and behavior without the possibility or efficacy to get "informed consent".
  - zosima 4y ago
    Difference here of course is that subjects are being measured in a way which is almost definitely not fully anonymous. Of course an IRB review and an explanation of how data is properly anonymized should be there.
    - SideQuark 4y ago
      >Difference here of course is that subjects are being measured in a way which is almost definitely not fully anonymous. There's no way to conclude that from the article. The devices are designed to measure if a seat is being used, not take blood samples or record PII. If that data simply ends up being total # of seat hours in a given class, or seat-hours by time of day, then that's far more anonymous than a routine traffic cam tracking traffic flow, or tons of other things not requiring IRB review. It sounds more like the usual outrage spin. Maybe they'll simply use common security cameras in each room, and count people by face recognition :)
- bequanna 4y ago
  Research via measurement alone is pretty different from research that involves trying to change behavior.
rsfern 4y ago
These were installed in grad student offices, and as far as I can tell not in classroom spaces It’s equivalent to your employer installing monitoring devices in your assigned desk and saying “trust us, we’ll anonymize the data”. And the administration got caught lying about submitting to the institutional review board

Steven420 4y ago

"trust the university since you trust them to give you a degree...." seems like extortion

remram 4y ago

Repost from 12 hours prior (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33849280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33849280)

heywire 4y ago
Oops, sorry about that. I searched for the story before posting and didn’t see it.