9 ms·

What do military bases do specifically causing this contamination?

by dtech 4y ago

nonameiguess 4y ago
No idea specifically with PFAS, but in general, military installations are used for military training, which has many of the same pollution properties of an actual war. Spent rounds, links, casings for missiles, rockets, tank rounds, exploded C4, spilled fuel and lubricants. A great deal of effort goes into cleaning up after exercises, but you're never going to get it all. This is at least part of the reason training areas tend to be fairly isolated and remote and ideally nowhere near the water source for a human population. But also why the military has a pretty consistent history of settlement awards for raising cancer rates in at least the families of the personnel themselves who have no choice but to live there.
sgtnoodle 4y ago
I believe they routinely dump large quantities of PFAS based chemicals onto runways for whatever reason, then let it run down storm drains.
gpcr1949 4y ago
I was wondering the same thing. I found this in a guardian article > The military’s firefighters use aqueous film-forming foam, or AFFF, which contains extremely high levels of PFAS, in training exercises and emergencies. Though AFFF is effective, it has led to widespread contamination around bases and airports, and Congress just mandated the military check for PFAS pollution at 700 facilities while earmarking $571m for cleanup, though observers say the cost will likely be much higher. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/06/military-bases-contaminating-water-supply-pfas https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/06/military-bas...
stephen_g 4y ago
They would do firefighting training using foams that contained carcinogenic PFAS compounds. PFAS are extremely persistent, both in the environment and in the body. Apart from the risk from direct contact with the foams, it also would accumulate in the ground and then leech into groundwater, rivers, streams, oceans etc. so gets into local water and food supply. These foams were a problem in civilian airports too but not to the same extent as military. Also in a lot of ways the military just seems to have safety standards a few decades behind everyone else. Various fuels, solvents and lubricants they use for aircraft etc. also contain carcinogenic compounds, and they just seem to have a history of never disposing of them properly (an example is the burn pits in Afghanistan where they would just dig big holes and burn toxic solvents along with plastic waste etc. in the air, causing huge health problems and many deaths for a lot of veterans).
- nszceta 4y ago
  They didn't just burn plastic waste and solvents in the burn pits; they burned everything: even hundreds of brand new iPads and other electronics.
  - treypitt 4y ago
    source?
    - nszceta 4y ago
      People I talked to that did the burning
    - driverdan 4y ago
      Search for "military burn pits" and you'll learn a lot about them. Wikipedia is also a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_pit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_pit
  - stephen_g 4y ago
    They did burn all their rubbish yes (though I hadn’t heard of them burning new electronics! That’s crazy!). I was just highlighting the particularly nasty stuff, but there was also organic and even human waste burned.
    - nszceta 4y ago
      Yes, there were so many unnecessary electronics that defense contractors convinced the Army they needed to bring to Afghanistan. Commanders never tied them in to their operating procedures so they went unused. When it came time to close the outpost shipping was not an option so EVERYTHING had to be burned.
- dspillett 4y ago
  > military just seems to have safety standards a few decades behind everyone else I suspect they have the same standards as most industry. They just have a ton of exceptions and other get-out clauses in the form of national safety arguements. These arguements will fall off steadily as new materials/techniques become commonplace, it becomes shown that the risks don't justify the supposed national safety benefits, or (in the case of bases on foreign soil) relevant treatises come into effect, so safety procedures will be seen to "catch up". Though sometimes on top of "national security" reasons there is also the "who will know until far too late if ever" thinking to contend with…
meindnoch 4y ago
Firefighting foams
- mirekrusin 4y ago
  What's wrong with water?
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    it doesn't foam
  - Eleison23 4y ago
  - jabl 4y ago
    Same reason you're not supposed to extinguish an oil fire in your frying pan by splashing water on it.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    I though this was "common knowledge" but here goes. There are different class fire extinguishers depending on what is on fire. https://vanguard-fire.com/what-are-the-5-different-classes-of-fires/ https://vanguard-fire.com/what-are-the-5-different-classes-o... You cant use water on any sort of "gas" fire because the gas (airplane fuel, etc) will simply float on top of the water and remain on fire. Throwing water on it can actually help it spread as well.
    - mirekrusin 4y ago
      In recent fire truck vs airplane crash on the airport they used water and it seem to worked well. We're talking about open air fire treated with carcinogenic foam in large quantities where 1m+ large flakes land in somebody's private garden.
      - ben_w 4y ago
simongr3dal 4y ago
The article mentions that "health activists" have been denied access to the bases, I don't think it's too much to imagine that Japanese authorities could also be facing significant bureaucratic hurdles to gain access and actually determine the source of pollution. They give an example of both military and civilian firefighters doing training that involve using a lot of fire-suppressing foam. These foams contain carcinogenic compounds that can be washed into the groundwater by rain. In Denmark we have recently had just that happen to people living near firefighter training grounds [link] link (machine translated since I couldn't find anything in english): https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/indland/store-maengder-af-farligt-stof-er-maalt-i-korsoer-borgeres-blod-man-falder-ned-i-et?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/indland/store-maeng...
devoutsalsa 4y ago
I used to live on Treasure Island, a former naval base in San Francisco. It turns out my former house contained radioactive from atomic weapons testing in the Pacific. That explains my third arm. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/navy-finds-radiation-in-treasure-island-home/71751/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/navy-finds-radiation-i...
- pyuser583 4y ago
  How is Treasure Island? I wanted to live there, but everyone is SF said “don’t.” Apparently it’s an ugly, post-industrial sewage pit populated by an extremist anti-male lesbian commune, and Coastguardsmen receiving hazard pay. I figured it was just local prejudice, but there’s some truth to the myth?
basch 4y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/25/us-military-toxic-chemicals-us-states https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/25/us-mil... David Bond has a series of articles about things like this.
ArnoVW 4y ago
I would hope that the Standard Operating Practise is adapted to local conditions, and that this sort of thing would not happen next to urban areas, but a good example of the typical mindset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKNfFm0QDXQ Btw, this is from a Youtube channel of an Emergency medic. It's sort of Doctor House, but with real cases. He makes his videos to attract attention to certain things, so that people don't end up in the emergency ward. Highly recommend.
morbidious 4y ago
And moreover why does America have to poke its nose into other countries and establish military bases there?
- akomtu 4y ago
  It goes all the way back to WW2. Japan was playing for the wrong team and that team lost. Since then Japan is effectively a vassal of the US.
  - morbidious 4y ago
    But don't Americans have any shame for wiping out so many innocent lives in the nuclear bombings, yet still have the audacity to make Japan their vassal state?
    - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
      No
    - uni_rule 4y ago
      It was not particularly to empathize with Imperial Japan of all places. Saying they didn't treat people kindly was the understatement of the (20th) century.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
runjake 4y ago
Fuels and other petroleum fluids, which military bases use a lot of. Munitions, munition byproducts, biowaste, various other fluids such as carcinogenic firefighter fluids, aircraft engines, tank engines, we would run internal combustion engines (generators, HVAC, misc) like there was no tomorrow because fuel was effectively free. Those are just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head, but I keep coming up with more so I’ll stop writing now. Don’t ever live on or near a decommissioned military base.

What do military bases do specifically causing this contamination?

by dtech 4y ago

What do military bases do specifically causing this contamination?

No idea specifically with PFAS, but in general, military installations are used for military training, which has many of the same pollution properties of an actual war. Spent rounds, links, casings for missiles, rockets, tank rounds, exploded C4, spilled fuel and lubricants. A great deal of effort goes into cleaning up after exercises, but you're never going to get it all. This is at least part of the reason training areas tend to be fairly isolated and remote and ideally nowhere near the water source for a human population. But also why the military has a pretty consistent history of settlement awards for raising cancer rates in at least the families of the personnel themselves who have no choice but to live there.

sgtnoodle 4y ago

I believe they routinely dump large quantities of PFAS based chemicals onto runways for whatever reason, then let it run down storm drains.

gpcr1949 4y ago

I was wondering the same thing. I found this in a guardian article > The military’s firefighters use aqueous film-forming foam, or AFFF, which contains extremely high levels of PFAS, in training exercises and emergencies. Though AFFF is effective, it has led to widespread contamination around bases and airports, and Congress just mandated the military check for PFAS pollution at 700 facilities while earmarking $571m for cleanup, though observers say the cost will likely be much higher. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/06/military-bases-contaminating-water-supply-pfas https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/06/military-bas...

stephen_g 4y ago

They would do firefighting training using foams that contained carcinogenic PFAS compounds. PFAS are extremely persistent, both in the environment and in the body. Apart from the risk from direct contact with the foams, it also would accumulate in the ground and then leech into groundwater, rivers, streams, oceans etc. so gets into local water and food supply. These foams were a problem in civilian airports too but not to the same extent as military. Also in a lot of ways the military just seems to have safety standards a few decades behind everyone else. Various fuels, solvents and lubricants they use for aircraft etc. also contain carcinogenic compounds, and they just seem to have a history of never disposing of them properly (an example is the burn pits in Afghanistan where they would just dig big holes and burn toxic solvents along with plastic waste etc. in the air, causing huge health problems and many deaths for a lot of veterans).

nszceta 4y ago
They didn't just burn plastic waste and solvents in the burn pits; they burned everything: even hundreds of brand new iPads and other electronics.
- treypitt 4y ago
  source?
  - nszceta 4y ago
    People I talked to that did the burning
  - driverdan 4y ago
    Search for "military burn pits" and you'll learn a lot about them. Wikipedia is also a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_pit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_pit
- stephen_g 4y ago
  They did burn all their rubbish yes (though I hadn’t heard of them burning new electronics! That’s crazy!). I was just highlighting the particularly nasty stuff, but there was also organic and even human waste burned.
  - nszceta 4y ago
    Yes, there were so many unnecessary electronics that defense contractors convinced the Army they needed to bring to Afghanistan. Commanders never tied them in to their operating procedures so they went unused. When it came time to close the outpost shipping was not an option so EVERYTHING had to be burned.
dspillett 4y ago
> military just seems to have safety standards a few decades behind everyone else I suspect they have the same standards as most industry. They just have a ton of exceptions and other get-out clauses in the form of national safety arguements. These arguements will fall off steadily as new materials/techniques become commonplace, it becomes shown that the risks don't justify the supposed national safety benefits, or (in the case of bases on foreign soil) relevant treatises come into effect, so safety procedures will be seen to "catch up". Though sometimes on top of "national security" reasons there is also the "who will know until far too late if ever" thinking to contend with…

meindnoch 4y ago

Firefighting foams

mirekrusin 4y ago
What's wrong with water?
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  it doesn't foam
- Eleison23 4y ago
- jabl 4y ago
  Same reason you're not supposed to extinguish an oil fire in your frying pan by splashing water on it.
- kennend3 4y ago
  I though this was "common knowledge" but here goes. There are different class fire extinguishers depending on what is on fire. https://vanguard-fire.com/what-are-the-5-different-classes-of-fires/ https://vanguard-fire.com/what-are-the-5-different-classes-o... You cant use water on any sort of "gas" fire because the gas (airplane fuel, etc) will simply float on top of the water and remain on fire. Throwing water on it can actually help it spread as well.
  - mirekrusin 4y ago
    In recent fire truck vs airplane crash on the airport they used water and it seem to worked well. We're talking about open air fire treated with carcinogenic foam in large quantities where 1m+ large flakes land in somebody's private garden.
    - ben_w 4y ago

simongr3dal 4y ago

The article mentions that "health activists" have been denied access to the bases, I don't think it's too much to imagine that Japanese authorities could also be facing significant bureaucratic hurdles to gain access and actually determine the source of pollution. They give an example of both military and civilian firefighters doing training that involve using a lot of fire-suppressing foam. These foams contain carcinogenic compounds that can be washed into the groundwater by rain. In Denmark we have recently had just that happen to people living near firefighter training grounds [link] link (machine translated since I couldn't find anything in english): https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/indland/store-maengder-af-farligt-stof-er-maalt-i-korsoer-borgeres-blod-man-falder-ned-i-et?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/indland/store-maeng...

devoutsalsa 4y ago

I used to live on Treasure Island, a former naval base in San Francisco. It turns out my former house contained radioactive from atomic weapons testing in the Pacific. That explains my third arm. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/navy-finds-radiation-in-treasure-island-home/71751/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/navy-finds-radiation-i...

pyuser583 4y ago
How is Treasure Island? I wanted to live there, but everyone is SF said “don’t.” Apparently it’s an ugly, post-industrial sewage pit populated by an extremist anti-male lesbian commune, and Coastguardsmen receiving hazard pay. I figured it was just local prejudice, but there’s some truth to the myth?

basch 4y ago

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/25/us-military-toxic-chemicals-us-states https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/25/us-mil... David Bond has a series of articles about things like this.

ArnoVW 4y ago

I would hope that the Standard Operating Practise is adapted to local conditions, and that this sort of thing would not happen next to urban areas, but a good example of the typical mindset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKNfFm0QDXQ Btw, this is from a Youtube channel of an Emergency medic. It's sort of Doctor House, but with real cases. He makes his videos to attract attention to certain things, so that people don't end up in the emergency ward. Highly recommend.

morbidious 4y ago

And moreover why does America have to poke its nose into other countries and establish military bases there?

akomtu 4y ago
It goes all the way back to WW2. Japan was playing for the wrong team and that team lost. Since then Japan is effectively a vassal of the US.
- morbidious 4y ago
  But don't Americans have any shame for wiping out so many innocent lives in the nuclear bombings, yet still have the audacity to make Japan their vassal state?
  - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
    No
  - uni_rule 4y ago
    It was not particularly to empathize with Imperial Japan of all places. Saying they didn't treat people kindly was the understatement of the (20th) century.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

runjake 4y ago

Fuels and other petroleum fluids, which military bases use a lot of. Munitions, munition byproducts, biowaste, various other fluids such as carcinogenic firefighter fluids, aircraft engines, tank engines, we would run internal combustion engines (generators, HVAC, misc) like there was no tomorrow because fuel was effectively free. Those are just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head, but I keep coming up with more so I’ll stop writing now. Don’t ever live on or near a decommissioned military base.