5 ms·

You do realize I assume that in the whole of middle east, Israel and Iran are the only reasonably functional countries where people get to elect their governmen

by sfifs 4y ago

You do realize I assume that in the whole of middle east, Israel and Iran are the only reasonably functional countries where people get to elect their government to some extent and the people leading the government actually change based on the vote? Maybe that's why the governments hate each other :-) Perhaps Lebanon as well but the country has been non-functional for a long time. Every other country including every western ally is a de-facto dictatorship of some form or the other.

yyyk 4y ago
There are no real elections in Iran, since every significant challenger to whomever the Supreme Leader decides to support will be disqualified (e.g. Raisi's election).
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  You mean like the center-right in Israel that will always win against the Arab left?
  - josh_fyi 4y ago
    An Arab party and two leftist parties were in the last coalition, though the Arab party was Islamist and the leftists parties were not Arab parties.
    - JZM8yKnRvGv 4y ago
      AFAIK from 2019 to 2022 there were five elections, all of them where won by the center right (the center or the right) The right is (was) led by Netanyahu, the center by Ganz, a retired military general, former ministry of defense. Not exactly two champions of progressivism. I don't recall a victory of the left or the Arab parties in Israel, maybe it's because, like in Iran, the situation in the area forces them to act in a certain way, to not disappear. I don't condone what's happening in Iran, but I think I understand why there isn't a democracy of the same kind we like to pride ourselves in the west. I think OP meant to say that Iran is to be considered more democratic than its neighbouring countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Emirates (and so on). Some of them (we all know who they are) are close friends of the west or some western countries, one in particular (we all know which one is it), and I honestly believe they are more dangerous than Iran.
      - josh_fyi 4y ago
        Referring to the most recent coalition, as listed here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_government_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_government_of_Isr... The Islamist party I mentioned was United Arab List and the leftist ones I mentioned were Labor and Meretz.
        JZM8yKnRvGv 4y ago
        > The Islamist party I mentioned was United Arab List and the leftist ones I mentioned were Labor and Meretz. True, but that was what in Germany call "Große Koalition" the only thing the coalition had in common was that the did not like Netanyahu It only lasted one year. Ra'am (United Arab List) took only 3% of the votes, Labour 6% and they were among other center-right and full right wing parties.
      - sharikous 4y ago
        You are oversimplifying Israeli politics. Concepts like "left" and "right" do not apply fully there as there are at least three fundamental splits that are somewhat independent: appeasement with the Palestinians vs hawkish politics, economic right/left, religion vs secularism. And what wins is a coalition, not a single party, so the bag is even more mixed, not to mention that parties have internal currents too From 2019 we had 5 elections: - 2 elections with no winner and no coalition forming - 1 election that brought constitutional changes and a government of center-right (towards Palestinians), center-left (economically) mixed religious-secular - 1 election that was also center-right (Palestinians) but included an Arab party too, mixed bag (economically) more secular than religious - the last election that appears to be full right (Palestinians), mixed right/left (economically), substantially pro-religion I can agree that the policy towards the Palestinians is somewhat fixed on the center-right but there are very clear reasons for that. Neither ignoring the Palestinian problem, as attempted in the '70s and '80s nor appeasing them, as was done in the '90s and '00s, proved to be less than disastrous solutions. But economically you will find a lot of leftist ideas even in "rightist" parties, out in the open or somewhat overt (allowances for the religious) and the secular/religious split is becoming a strong force of polarization too
- sfifs 4y ago
  You should consider doing research. Even Wikipedia gives a good start. As everywhere, maintaining power is a balancing act and has flowed between factions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Principlists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Principlists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Reformists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Reformists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_pragmatists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_pragmatists
  - Pigalowda 4y ago
    These are factions, do you know what a faction is?
  - yyyk 4y ago
    You should look at Iranian 'elections' since 2009 (stolen) or the last one (every possible serious opponent to Raisi being disqualified). Even NIAC had to concede this: https://www.niacouncil.org/news/disqualifications-clear-path-for-raisi-victory-spark-outrage/ https://www.niacouncil.org/news/disqualifications-clear-path...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
inglor_cz 4y ago
Elections where even Khomeini's grandson was barred from candidacy are a sham. We had fake elections in Communist Czechoslovakia as well. Guess what, the United National Front Candidate List always won with tremendous majority.
anothernewdude 4y ago
Israel is corrupt and Iran is a dictatorship. If another party decides who can have power in the elected body - that party has power. That's what has happened to Hong Kong, and it's what happens in Iran.
- SpelingBeeChamp 4y ago
  >Israel is corrupt How so?
  - anothernewdude 4y ago
    You don't end up with Netanyahu term after term without corruption. He's a symptom and a cause of something bad happening in their government.

by sfifs 4y ago

yyyk 4y ago

There are no real elections in Iran, since every significant challenger to whomever the Supreme Leader decides to support will be disqualified (e.g. Raisi's election).

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
You mean like the center-right in Israel that will always win against the Arab left?
- josh_fyi 4y ago
  An Arab party and two leftist parties were in the last coalition, though the Arab party was Islamist and the leftists parties were not Arab parties.
  - JZM8yKnRvGv 4y ago
    AFAIK from 2019 to 2022 there were five elections, all of them where won by the center right (the center or the right) The right is (was) led by Netanyahu, the center by Ganz, a retired military general, former ministry of defense. Not exactly two champions of progressivism. I don't recall a victory of the left or the Arab parties in Israel, maybe it's because, like in Iran, the situation in the area forces them to act in a certain way, to not disappear. I don't condone what's happening in Iran, but I think I understand why there isn't a democracy of the same kind we like to pride ourselves in the west. I think OP meant to say that Iran is to be considered more democratic than its neighbouring countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Emirates (and so on). Some of them (we all know who they are) are close friends of the west or some western countries, one in particular (we all know which one is it), and I honestly believe they are more dangerous than Iran.
    - josh_fyi 4y ago
      Referring to the most recent coalition, as listed here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_government_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_government_of_Isr... The Islamist party I mentioned was United Arab List and the leftist ones I mentioned were Labor and Meretz.
      - JZM8yKnRvGv 4y ago
        > The Islamist party I mentioned was United Arab List and the leftist ones I mentioned were Labor and Meretz. True, but that was what in Germany call "Große Koalition" the only thing the coalition had in common was that the did not like Netanyahu It only lasted one year. Ra'am (United Arab List) took only 3% of the votes, Labour 6% and they were among other center-right and full right wing parties.
    - sharikous 4y ago
      You are oversimplifying Israeli politics. Concepts like "left" and "right" do not apply fully there as there are at least three fundamental splits that are somewhat independent: appeasement with the Palestinians vs hawkish politics, economic right/left, religion vs secularism. And what wins is a coalition, not a single party, so the bag is even more mixed, not to mention that parties have internal currents too From 2019 we had 5 elections: - 2 elections with no winner and no coalition forming - 1 election that brought constitutional changes and a government of center-right (towards Palestinians), center-left (economically) mixed religious-secular - 1 election that was also center-right (Palestinians) but included an Arab party too, mixed bag (economically) more secular than religious - the last election that appears to be full right (Palestinians), mixed right/left (economically), substantially pro-religion I can agree that the policy towards the Palestinians is somewhat fixed on the center-right but there are very clear reasons for that. Neither ignoring the Palestinian problem, as attempted in the '70s and '80s nor appeasing them, as was done in the '90s and '00s, proved to be less than disastrous solutions. But economically you will find a lot of leftist ideas even in "rightist" parties, out in the open or somewhat overt (allowances for the religious) and the secular/religious split is becoming a strong force of polarization too
sfifs 4y ago
You should consider doing research. Even Wikipedia gives a good start. As everywhere, maintaining power is a balancing act and has flowed between factions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Principlists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Principlists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Reformists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Reformists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_pragmatists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_pragmatists
- Pigalowda 4y ago
  These are factions, do you know what a faction is?
- yyyk 4y ago
  You should look at Iranian 'elections' since 2009 (stolen) or the last one (every possible serious opponent to Raisi being disqualified). Even NIAC had to concede this: https://www.niacouncil.org/news/disqualifications-clear-path-for-raisi-victory-spark-outrage/ https://www.niacouncil.org/news/disqualifications-clear-path...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

inglor_cz 4y ago

Elections where even Khomeini's grandson was barred from candidacy are a sham. We had fake elections in Communist Czechoslovakia as well. Guess what, the United National Front Candidate List always won with tremendous majority.

anothernewdude 4y ago

Israel is corrupt and Iran is a dictatorship. If another party decides who can have power in the elected body - that party has power. That's what has happened to Hong Kong, and it's what happens in Iran.

SpelingBeeChamp 4y ago
>Israel is corrupt How so?
- anothernewdude 4y ago
  You don't end up with Netanyahu term after term without corruption. He's a symptom and a cause of something bad happening in their government.